Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s job creation plan won’t create a single job

It’s the worst public policy of the year, writes Mike Moffatt


Aaron Lynett/CP

Earlier today, the Ontario government announced that it is “partnering with Cisco Canada to launch the largest job-creating investment in the history of the province’s tech sector.” We should naturally be skeptical of any deal that sees taxpayer dollars go to a firm that made over $2 billion in profit just last quarter. However, reading through the details of this plan, skepticism turns to outrage. This is a plan that is explicitly designed to increase income inequality and transfer money from poorer regions of the province to one of Canada’s wealthiest cities and will likely not create a single new job.

The deal promises that “up to 1,700 jobs” will be added in the next six years, with the province providing “up to $190 million” in return, for a cost of $112,000 per job. Cisco estimates that 80% of the new jobs will be in Ottawa, a city with one of the lowest unemployment rates in the province at 5.7%. And if a 5.7% unemployment rate seems relatively low, it towers over the sub-3% rate in the Information and Communications Technology (ICT) industry. Because of the low unemployment levels of both the city and the sector, the number of net new jobs created here is likely to be zero. Cisco will be simply luring away workers that would have worked for other ICT companies (or who would have been hired anyway by Cisco even without the handout). This will help raise the wages of workers in that sector, but does nothing for jobs. Those jobs are already very well compensated, so this is acting as a wage subsidy to high-income workers, paid for by the general population.

We should understand what this deal is not. This is not a plan to “create jobs” for low and medium-skilled workers in Leamington and London, who have few options now that their plants are closed. A plan focused on laid-off manufacturing workers would have a worthwhile goal, though it may not necessarily be sound public policy (the devil is in the details). But that is the exact opposite of what this plan does; I cannot begin to even understand what the province is attempting to accomplish here. The net effect of the Ontario government’s new policy is to subsidize jobs in an already strong labour market, increase the wages of already high-income workers and give hundreds of millions of dollars in corporate welfare to one of the largest and most profitable companies in the world. This easily ranks as the worst Canadian public policy of 2013.


Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne’s job creation plan won’t create a single job

  1. The idea is to have cisco invest in infrastructure in ottawa and then pull back the subsidies over time (6yrs) hoping they will stay in ottawa afterwards.

    • Ottawa is not Somalia, nobody should have to grovel to a private company to keep jobs around.

      • Shouldn’t have to, but do, because if they can take advantage of extremely low wages and working conditions elsewhere, they might. And for those who think that Ontario’s energy prices are a factor, check the facts: they’re much higher in many other provinces, states and countries.

        • Canadians wouldn’t need high wages if government stopped taking their money and handing it over to corporations that don’t need it.

    • So their plan is “hope”? You’d think with $200M you’d get more than “hope”.

  2. Hey…..if Kathlynn Wynne and her Liberals tell you something…shouldn’t you believe them? After all….they have such a stellar record when it comes to spending OUR money.
    Can’t recall any waste…can you?

    • I don’;t know. Can we believe Harper when the Fed split a pkg for ford to increase capacity in Oakville. What has trust to do with business anyway?

      • OK….. what does that have to do with the Ontario Liberal’s continued failing economic policies?

        • And what economic policies would that be? Don’t say Orange. That’s not an economic policy. Don’t say sunshine list..that isn’t an economic policy.

          • Well, I could point out the epic failure that is the provinces “green energy” strategy that’s been driving businesses out of the province for years. Or spending $1B on securing Liberal re-election. Or tax hike after tax hike after tax hike. Or giving every union everything it’s ever asked for. Or the generally out of control spending habits of the Liberal government.

            But I won’t mention those failed Liberal economic policies, and I’ll just agree with you. The Liberals don’t have any economic policy, they only have political policy.

          • a) Businesses do not pay same electricity rates as residential. Almost every other place on earth as a Green Program. Alberta has more wind turbine capacity per person than Ontario..Texas..home of big oil..has more wind capacity than all of Canada. What goes into a wind turbine..concrete…do we need to import that..steel/copper..see Ontario mining. Who gets the wind generation money? Green has nothing..read my lips..nothing to do with businesses leaving. If it did why is that new German frozen pizza guy moving into London..or the tire retreader ( big power user ) moving into St.Mary’s?
            As for the Gas Plant moving. That I’ll agree was a bad idea. But the bad idea started with OPG. Missassauga ( sorry for spelling ) was they’re recommendation. I will agree government should have reviewed that with more diligence ( and yes I consider that in my review of how they have done ) . But the move was correct. May i remind you both Hudak and the NDP also said they’d move the plants. Corporations also don’t pay our tax rate. In fact there’s has been dropping.
            ;I won’t shoot down what else you’ve said since I plan on voting conservative next election. And there is only one reason. We can not compete against slave labour. We might hold out a bit longer on some businesses but it will mean large subsidies to business. You and I will pay for it and you can bet once the conservatives are in they’l be more than happy to give big business so much the money we’re giving cisco will look like loose change. And you know who is going to pay for it. Best we can do for 2 more yrs. till Harper is tossed. BW

          • If they cant get Ornge and sunshine list right what makes you think they will get economic policy right? I simply don’t trust any politician with money, but the liberals are right on the bottom of the list!!!

          • Where’s the Fed’s sunshine list? Just don’t print anything and the press don’t print. so it doesn’t get in your face on the news or some talk show. If you’re pissed that some flunky with connectionsis getting $100,000 …good…I am too. Do you believe somebody isn’t going to be making that with Hudak in? Get real.I will keep al these things in mind and I am voting conservative…but only because I believe we ‘re going to need to cough up a lot more to keep companies in canada with the current trade deals. Those deals didn’t do what was planned for the most part. Look at the honduras. Did us giving them a big chunk of our clothing industry do they’re workers any good? If you didn’t have to pay the EI premiums or the welfare bills or the lack of buying power of someone forced to work at a min. wage could you not put someone to work here for maybe a somewhat comfortable $16? $17. Maybe the kids could get a summer job and not come out of university with 30k debt. China is doing so nicely they’re ending the one child per family thing. Yup..Canada ..assuming it isn’t bought up in the next 30 yrs will be doing quite good feeding another couple billion people, Assuming..

          • You’re right again, Bill….
            Liberal incompetence and corruption is NOT economic policy. But at the end of the day…..it is just as costly, and often has less to show for the efforts.
            The worst policy the Libs have had is the Green Energy act. That was both incompetence and bad policy…though, it has proven quite lucrative for certain members of the Liberal party who have major stakes in “clean energy” companies…..but you won’t see much mention of that on most media other than SUNTV.

          • Ah, are we miffed somebody got in on something we didn’t? And I suppose some Conservative federal ridings didn’t get a goodie during the G8. Maybe your doing fine and don’t need to find a solution to our loss of jobs. But for serious discussion, for the people of Leamington and elsewhere, let’s stick to the topic. Let’s go with wind turbines. If we’re providing the concrete steel copper…then any money going in to these things is money going right back in our pocket. If it’s so bad why is Alberta going to triple they’re wind capacity over the next 6 or 7 yrs. What about those stupid Germans. Anybody who’s been there knows that any stories that they’re cutting back on wind is crap…straight from they’re planning bureau… Plans call for some 60,000 new turbines to be erected in Germany. And guess what they need to import copper for those. … Any copper needed here comes right from our mines ..paying our miners..with our mining companies paying taxes to Ontario. The Concrete producers association of Canada has a big thumbs up for wind. If your ticked cause you’re not in on the goodies directly..say so. That will be a valid arguement.

          • Bill, you are aware that Ontario consumers are subsidizing American firms power costs for their manufacturing plants right?
            Wynne is increasing our costs for electricity (and that of our rapidly depleting manufacturing jobs base) and sending the proceeds to offshore companies.
            The Green energy act and it’s policies are bankrupting the province, but as you say, “someone is getting in on it” seems only to apply to well connected folks in the Wynne Government.
            The rest of us….are stuck with the bill.
            WHy no mention of the gas plants bill?

          • If you’re still around I’l lpost this for you as well. Warren Buffet. Yup the same guy who sold out Heinz for his shareholders benefit had his utility co. invest 1 billion for a wind farm.in Iowa. Maybe SUNTV shouldn’t be your authority. Buffet votes with his dollars.

          • how about the “job creating” green energy program, does this fall under failed economic policy. or perhaps just spending 200 billion dollars over a decade just to lose jobs and cause energy prices to escalate to the point of no return. do they fall under your thinking of what fail economic policy is…

          • You show me where you get $200 billion from and I’ll bow to your excellent research skills and agree with you entirely. I truly expect never to hear back from you.

          • ? – what was the debt then and what is it now – what is the deficit then and what is it now – how much have they spent on green energy only to lose job, remember the 54,000+ jobs promised because of the green shift, yeh didn’t think so. perhaps i adjusted up, but it is dam near 200 billion blown by the Libs. please rebut…

          • I take it your not an accountant. If you say the difference in deficit is all due to Green then you’re not even at $15 billion. That’s not 10% of $200 billion But I;m sure you’re not saying that all the deficit is from Green power alone. We’re you off the planet during 2008-2009? You miss the recession? So are you saying the Fed’s are into Green too? Because you just might want to check they’re deficit the last few yrs. Hundreds of thousands of jobs have been created since the recession. Am i saying that 50,000 plus are from green no. but where are all those job losses? i thought there was supposed to be 2 or 3 or 4 to 1. I’m sure I’ve stated it elsewhere but here it goes again. Alberta, home of cheap oil/gas has more installed wind power per person than Ontario. Yes, that province which cries for more enginerers/metal workers/and so on considers it worth they’re future to take able body workers and have them construct wind turbines. What about this ..
            Denmark surpasses 100 percent wind power
            That’s right in Nov. Denmark wind turbines pumped as much power as the country was using and then some. Do you think they had no jobs? They’re unemployment rate is under 7%. German unemployment rate is under 6% and they produce more wid power than we do from all our power sources put together. and you know what? Germany has to import copper for all those turbines. Ontario has copper coming out its ears. So this is another thing you want shipped off-shore for someone else to use. Think about this head scratcher as well. Once a wind turbine goes up there is no external ‘foreign’ cost for Ontario. We can do any necessary repairs. so those jobs are our jobs for the next 20 yrs. A gas plant or a coal plant is going to require gas and coal yr. in and yr. out. Where is that gas coming from? not Ontario. Where we getting our coal from qwhen those plants were running. not from here. The u.s. ..places like W.Va. would they be giving us that free for the next 20 yrs? No. We’d be paying for it to someone else yr. after yr. Any of this getting thru. Or you just hate the liberals and facts just get in the way. By the way..who ‘corrected’ the massive Mulroney deficit. It was the conservative party.

          • typing eror..it sure as heck wasn’;t the conservative party

          • I will want to thank all those who dump on Green energy. It caused me to read the so called Canadian study of studies from the Fraser institute by a ‘noted’ Guelph professor. I read it and couldn’t believe my eyes. No, I”m not a professor or noted author but that study was a joke. A 1st/2nd yr. university student would be failed if they presented that. He compared Alberta industrial production going up over the past several yrs. to Ontario’s going down. Really. Not ontario compared to ohio or michigan or someplace like that. Alberta the home of the massive oil sands projects ..that was his comparison trying to show ..I guess…how Ontario’s economy had been hurt by Green. ( Note: He didn’t mention al the wind turbines Alberta put up ). . In his comparison of hydro rates he included Quebec. Quebec is almost 100% hydro power. I’ll debate the report 8 days a week. Shouldn’t require more than a few minutes.

      • did you read the article, its actually about Wynne and Ontario, but nice deflect…I think this is more about “lack” of trust not having trust…

        • Actually I did. So they’re in Cisco’s pocket? uh? Why not just give Heinz or Kellog’s or ..all of them 1/4 billion. I mean if you’re getting bought off why not more? I think you may mean they may not make a competent deal .Which is what the article, if you read it, is inferring. The writer of the article shows very little evidence he knows of what he writes. Where’s his article about the Fed’s and the Province giving money ( 70 mil. apiece ) to Ford for those underpaid auto workers in that poor Oakville. We keep saying people need to move to where the jobs are. So there’s a problem when now they’re going to be in ottawa? So a laid-off Blackberry worker in Kitchener can’t hop on the 401 and pick up a cisco job they’re. If somebody moves from an existing co. for for money. Fine. the blackberry guy can take the job he/she left. Reasoning of article is bad. either say you don’t make business deals or you do.

          As for conservatives here..you say nothing on the Ford deal which involves the federal Conservatives but you say you’re against corporation hand-outs on Cisco deal. You say you don’t pander to business but a couple weeks ago Hudak says he’d look at pegging business hydro rates ( note: not yours ) to the same level as neighbouring provinces/states ( what about China/Bangladesh/etc. etc. Tim ). Quebec has tons of cheap hydro-electric. Manitoba…big manufacturers are going there..don’t think so. Manufacturers are flocking to Buffalo..

          While the state has been gaining jobs overall, the manufacturing sector has continued to lose them. There were 12,300 fewer manufacturing jobs in the state in October than there were in the same month last year. —- Syracuse Post Standard newspaper from Oct. ( N.Y. State )

          Offshoring continues to impact Ohio with companies cutting at least 1,800 jobs in the state since January, according to petitions for federal assistance from employees, labor groups, and company officials. — Dayton Ohio Daily News Aug.

          What do you think they’ll do if Ontario gives business an electricity tax break? Lower there’s ya think. And as we chase the Chinese..then it’l be india then maybe vietnam for lower wages…well you get the idea.

          Unfortunately I don’t see the biggest dopes..the Harper feds doing thing one. So all I can look at is paying higher taxes under a Hudak government giving all sorts of corporate goodies out.

          I know we say there’s nothing we can do about. That’s the way of the world. We have to trade. Well if we’re getting our brains beaten out..why? Except for oil..what doesn’t this great province have. Water..we are water…land for crops..trees for homes…steel for cars. We can make a deal with Alberta…they can send their oil to the east coast thru us ..for a guarantee of a max. price and supply. Then a Heinz wants to move we say fine…we’ll build our own ketchup plant for us and you’re not welcome. Wadda you going to do..call up Obama and tell him not to allow us to take our money and go to Florida.

          • again, this is about Liberal/Ontario investment in jobs – a back door way of adding to the sunshine list, 117k per job. If you have read anything I write regarding any corporate welfare you would see I am an equal opportunity voice when it comes to giving more handouts to profitable corporations. I agree, the money should have gone to Heinz or other companies about to shut the doors, or perhaps they should just take another look at whats driving companies to leave, its not just taxes or hydro, its the recycling BS that these lefties are into – added cost on top of added cost = I out of here…I support low corp taxes, but we still must remain competitive with other countries not half of what they offer, but perhaps a few % points below just to attract. Ontario is/has become a non-manufacturing province compared to when the Libs came into power, and it will get worse, lets put together a useless panel/committee for that. have a good one.

          • Explain companies like Kaufman footwear/Uniroyal Tire/ and on and on..before Mcguinty? Why did toyota add another Ontario plant? That’s a ton of electricty. and now they’re adding a shift. A new tire retreading plant is opening in London. i guess they don’t used power. yor not telling me Heinz is leaving because we recycle..are you? Offer companies just a few per. points less. Now this is my point exactly. Where ..where does that end Dawg? What do you think a New York state or a michigan are going to do about that? And then when that’s not good enough for a company….Hello Vietnam..or Bangladesh..or China. I believe that is our option for the short term and it’s going to cost you and me a nice penny. But in the end we eed to stop these federal ding-dongs who think this country should run on potash and oil sands.

          • oh..and this just in..on green..The decision by Warren Buffett’s utility company to order about $1 billion of wind turbines for projects in Iowa shows how a drop in equipment costs is making renewable energy more competitive with power from fossil fuels. That’s right the supposedly smartest investor in the world who helped take over Heinz just put a billion into a new wind farm project. Just imagine this great province if we weren’t beholding to anybody for our energy. Or do we just hate a party so much and believe any crap that supports our hate. Let the back stabbing end. And stop fudging the numbers. If you don’t care to actually check for yourself let’s not let a talk show host or some riight ..or left think-tank call the shots for us.

          • I would love to see a pipeline from west to east, that would be fantastic and I think all parties would support it, but look at the chaos and problems just getting to this point with the northern gateway pipeline, imagine the hassle that is going to happen when the west/east pipeline gets a go ahead. we are our own worst enemy when it comes to natural resources. As a Canadian we are all aware of saving our great natural wonders, but progress must be made and oil is our payer of bills. The environmentalist have not grey area of middle ground.

          • but many good points, thanks…

        • I think I got pulled. There’s democracy. Well I”ll sum up and see if that’s o.k. Article doesn’t say anything about trust. It questions whether or not the funding is smart. The reasoning lacks ‘reason’. You don’t give a subsidy to get another high paying job here? You don’t get another job in Canada because the area where it would be going already has a good # of jobs. Why do we keep getting told to move to Alberta? I prefer to look at everything. But it all gets an even shake. Ontario’s budget is 125 billion. Add up amounts of pay over 100k, Orange, gas plants, green and what you might be looking at ..5%. Compare that to the jobs lost to China/Mexico/Thailand..not even close.

          • After 2015… Calgary will become Canada’s capital city

          • And why would that be?

          • cuz everyone goes there

      • I actually agree with you Bill. I hate it whenever a politician or party gives tax-payers’ money to wealthy companies.
        I was ticked when Harper bailed out the car compaines too……but I do realize he only did it due to the pressure of the Libs and NDP. Still don’t like the fact he caved into their demands though…..

        • think of the taxes (property/income) that would have been lost if they let the car companies fall, the cost of welfare and retraining would have been higher than what was spent by the Feds. Also remember we have almost 6 billion dollars of stock which can be cashed at anytime. But once we do, the UAW becomes the largest shareholder and GM and most of the others go home to the U.S. and that is going to hurt…

          • So that was a good idea because the NDP/Liberals and George had to drag Harper in. Hindsight you say. I’d just call it the correct policy. Liberals/NDP with the right policy..it must be the Twilight zone.

    • Actually Harper wastes $6.3B A YEAR on R&D spending that gets no results. Add to this the $14B A YEAR he wastes on corporate tax cuts that also get NO RESULTS.

      Wynne’s investment of $200M over a ten year period — when Cisco is kicking in $4B — is the smartest R&D investment Canada has seen in the past decade!

      (In case cons are bad at math: $200M that works is better than $200B that doesn’t.)

      “But the evidence suggests the $6.4-billion Ottawa sprinkles like fairy dust every year has not been well spent. Canada is ranked 18th of 31 OECD countries when it comes to business expenditure on research and development.”

      National Post: John Ivison: Government funding revamp will aim to help Canadian businesses reap R&D profits

      • Up to 1700 jobs really means about 200-300 jobs per year, Ontario wil lend up buying 1.5-3.5 billion is new cisco hardward and software services while they enjoy a nice write down in Ottawa on R&D. Cisco has like over 30 billion in cash reserves and makes large profit. Nothing like the Ontario Govt spinning the wheel of marketing hype on Job creation. In the end the 4 billion probably comes from the taxpayers right into Cisco bottom line over the next 5 years as the government refeshes its technology.

        • Show me the paperwork. If you have a something that shows an error or a bad move or anything i’ll agree to it. But don’t tell me any government is better or worse than another.because your anti-liberal or I’ll pull up the graph of Federal debt after Mulroney got those Trudeau spend like drunkin liberals out.

          • Bill….what are you going to trust….paperwork, or your own lying eyes?

            Look at the jobs leaving this province…look at what is happening to energy costs, and how it impacts consumers.

            It may be fine for you to believe the waste and mismangement of the Wynne Liberals will only cost as much as 1 Timmie’s…..but people who open their power bills, know the real truth…..as do all of the now unemployed thanks to the Liberals.

            They’re incompetent, corrupt, and morally bankrupt. Time for them to go.

          • Paperwork. Keep in mind I’ll be voting Conservative. Just maybe not why you want me to. But I’d like people to know why and then judge the outcome. Not in the end somebody says well someone was bought off or we didn’t know that. You start telling people that they’re life is going to get better because Mr. Hudak is trustworthy I’ll LMAO or cry or both. Mr. Harper thought he was morally correct telling the Liberals they were idiots for not following the U.S. blindly into Iraq. You think afghanistan cost us a few bucks. Oh and would you like me to pull the CTV tape where 3 days before the provincial election Hudak told the people of Missausaga that the gas plant there was “Done,done, done”. And if you want me to take something just on the face of it..why would I believe the German’s are a bunch of stupid Green fairies since they have plans for another 60,000 wind turbines. Alberta ..land of oil..has more wind power per person than Ontario. So let’s get this straight I’ll vote for Hudak with the full knowledge he will increase my taxes in the long term to provide large breaks for business…Still waiting on LDawg05..but he won’t be back.

          • its not the cancelling of the plant, its the beginning of the plant and the rush and incompetent way of cancelling the plant that is the problem. NO way this should have cost over a billion dollars, the builder was promised they would be “made whole”, now that’s criminal and failure to protect the tax payer. This is the problem I have with the whole thing. Totally incompetent from the beginning and lack of moral compass in the end…

          • Mr. Hudak’s words right before election regarding his position on cancelling the gas plant in Mississauga…”It’s done,done,done.” There’s a good bargaining position.

          • just read your whole post, I’m back as I have been out of town, sorry for the delay. yes we can expect higher taxes by the Conservatives, that is a given, and there is will be massive cuts, that is a given. Because for the past decade our politicians have been spending like drunken tree huggers and we are totally sc***** financially. So yes one or two elections down the road the left will no longer have the boogey man Mike Harris to use as their evil poster boy, it will be Tim Hudak, because he will have to try and fix the giant financial disaster that was created by McLiar and continued with Ms Wynne. So yes you are right and we should all get some money under the mattress because the Legislator is coming after our money right after we kick Ms Wynne and her crew to the curb…

          • You mean like Chretien and Martin cleaned up Mulroney’s deficit?

          • downloaded to the provinces and cause them to download to the municipalities. PM Jean and Paul did not clean up the deficit, it was us on many levels…

          • who paid down the Ontario debt? Cause if you’re telling me Harris just took out his check book. You didn’t mention the government who handed them that deficit.

          • as for Iraq, hind sight is a terrible tool, but Saddam needed to be taken out – he was a bad man. How it was done was wrong and the outcome will never be fixed until they get another strong man in charge. My solution when Saddam was gone, split the country into three, Sunai, Shia and Kurds, with each splitting the oil revenue equally or per captia. That could have stopped any further bloodshed (wishful thinking). Think Cheq and Slovakia, a pretty good split overall. The problem is they were worried Iran would take advantage thinking three were weak and in the end Iran took advantage because one was weak. again hind sight is a terrible tool…

          • A bad man as opposed to Kaddafi ( how many yrs. did we leave him in )..how about Kim Jong-un…absolutely nuts. How many thousands died in that war. Apparently the U.S. take on that was around $800-billion. How much would we have been for? $5 billion..$15..$50…Hindsight is not o,k, here when the Liberals made the right decision? Well maybe when the liberals told the builders of the gas plants that they would be made whole it will just be bad in hindsight? Funny how fairness works one way..

          • telling someone that they will be made whole does not take hind sight to be seen as just plain stupid…

          • Repeat. Unlesss Hudak has no foresight andis a total idiot then what we he be telling the gas companies when he says the plants are done,done, done. Just responding to what you want to isn’t very convincing. I always like the conservative viewpoint. We’re right, we know we’re right, so let’s just not discuss anything and go follow the path we ‘know’ is right. By the way it was Harris who downloaded on the municipal governments. He also sold off things like the 407 to cut the deficit. Drivers who often need to use that road get to send a Spanish group money for another what 70 yrs.

        • Cisco even comes with NSA built in too.

          • or China Telcom and their back door spying. either way we are being listened to, but not if you believe Obama…

      • If you are making an argument in favour of canning the entire SR&ED program, then I whole-hearted lay agree. We’ve got entire segments of tech industry that only exist because they continue to be propped up by SR&ED grants. I’ve been told this by someone who works at a tech from that wouldn’t exist without the steady stream of grants, year after year. If that isn’t the ultimate definition of a zombie corporation, I don’t know what is.

        • All developed countries invest in R&D. The problem is that Harper’s “unnecessarily complicated” funding regime is failing to get results.

          According to the OECD, Canada ranks #5 of 34 in public R&D spending. But we rank #19 of 34 in business R&D spending.

          That’s what makes Wynne’s deal the BEST R&D policy deal of the decade: a small public R&D investment of $200M is matched with $4B business R&D investment.

          Obviously if all our R&D spending was this efficient, we’d be productivity trailblazers instead of productivity laggards (#14 OECD with flat-lined productivity growth.)

          Globe and Mail: How Canada compares in its R&D spending

          • All those rankings prove is that innovation is not even correlated with government r&d assistance.

      • the $14B A YEAR he wastes on corporate tax cuts

        That isn’t his money, nor is it your money.

        • Actually it’s our descendants’ money because we’re borrowing $14B a year to pay for this reckless and ineffective policy.

          According to KPMG, Canada has the lowest effective corporate tax rate among ALL major economies, including China.

          By slashing corporate taxes this increases personal income taxes as a percent of total income tax revenues. Smarter policy would’ve cut income taxes instead. It would’ve had an actual positive effect on the economy instead of blowing a huge hole in the budget over nothing.

  3. ” 80% of the new jobs will be in Ottawa” A link to a… tweet?

  4. A) Why wouldn’t this draw other tech people. Let’s say laid off blackberry people from kitchener?
    B) We just gave a big tax break both fed and province to Ford to increase auto capacity in Oakville..a fairly well to do community.
    C) Province gave frozen pizza maker $7 mil to set up plant in London
    D) Aren’t those higher paid worker’s going to have to pay higher taxes?
    E) If Cisco needs these guys/gals and gives them jobs in the U.S. where is our talent making money?
    f) The federal government continues to have the worst policy yr. after yr. when we allow low cost jurisdictions to use slave labour to make billionaires out of millionaires both here and in those communist/dictator/ run nations.using our natural resources.

    • f] Actually resource jobs are on average among the best paying in the country. You’re barking up the wrong tree. If anything you’d do better to attack provinces that fail to levy an appropriate Royalty on publicly owned resources.

      • you mean like a national energy program for alberta oil?

        • Provincial royalties. Guess he should have put the word ‘provinces’ in bold or something.

        • Er, royalties are a provincial responsibility, so no I don’t mean like…

  5. ‘This is not a plan to “create jobs” for low and medium-skilled workers
    in Leamington and London, who have few options now that their plants are

    No, it is not. Nor is it meant to be.

    It’s a paradigm shift. It’s technology.

    • Then it should be shouldered by private companies not tax dollars… These tax dollars need to go to helping people with housing and food… Not a multibillion dollar company like Cisco..

      • Oh I see. It’s okay to subsidize factories and branch plants….but not technology.

        Sorry, you’re in the wrong economy.

        • Agreed. Harper wastes billions a year in R&D subsidies that get no results. Here a small investment is required in cutting-edge R&D which can boost Canada’s dead-in-the-water productivity growth. The $200M is a small portion of the $4B Cisco in investment.

          When it comes to government investment in R&D, this is the best deal of the past decade — by far.

          • Agreed. I know economists are struggling with the new economy…but this takes the cake!

        • It’s not okay to subsidize factories and branch plants, either. Let them rise and fall on their own merits. That is how capitalism works.

          • LOL no it’s not. Where the hell have YOU been??

          • I’ve emigrated from a place where government chose to abandon capitalism, has made efforts to prop up market failures, called failing banks ‘too big to fail’ and gave them shovelfuls of cash, has printed money like mad to try and keep their flimsy house of cards from crashing, and has implemented a ridiculous health insurance scheme that is an unholy marriage between government and private industry, and is hopelessly unsustainable.

            I tell you what. If you think the sickly system I’ve just described is so much better, then let’s trade nationalities. In five years, we’ll see who’s working, and who’s one of the 47+ million that have to collect food stamps, or gets to enjoy the ‘free’ health care at one of our fine government sanctioned, private prisons.


          • Your teabags are showing.

          • Yeah. I believe in gun control and single payer healthcare, and have been vehemently opposed to the illegal Iraq invasion for ten years – but yet my ‘tea bags’ are showing?

            Wow! If even moderate liberals are tea baggers in your eyes, then you are most likely a communist, but yet you also support fascism, too? Wow! You really are a confused bird, aren’t you?

            Like I said, if you enjoy fascism so much, you can take my US passport and head across the border with it. You can even keep your Canada passport as well as I don’t really care if I render myself stateless. Besides, you’ll be needing that safety valve when things over there really hit the fan, and when you tire of being a faceless peasant subject of the plutocrats in the political class while accepting your piddly handout until the real tea baggers take that away and leave you to starve.

          • I don’t know what it is about the phrase ‘knowledge economy’, but it brings out every wacko in the country.

            The topic here is economics in Ontario……it is NOT American politics….and I haven’t the slightest interest in your opinion of Obama. THAT is the teabag part.

          • Emily, you are aware that what happens in the American economy has a direct, and profound impact on our own correct?
            There’s nothing tea-baggish about it. Bad policy…is bad policy. The Americans are currently afflicted with it, and will be for another three years; in Ontario however, we have the chance to turn that around during the next provincial election.

          • The US used to have a profound effect on our economy…but we have other trade deals now….so the influence has lessened.

            The US however is doing well…and has a good president….the fact you don’t like him is the teabag part. If Obama walked on water you’d find something else to criticize.

            Cons were sure Ont would go rightwing in the last election…but it didn’t. And after 3 terms that’s remarkable. There is nothing to indicate Hudak will win the next time either.

            In fact, given the Con platform Ont would rather go NDP than let Hudak win…..and the NDP isn’t popular at all

            See, you’re trying to ‘change the culture’….and that isn’t going to work.

          • It’s unfortunate, but if we don’t play the game and compete with US states, and other countries, for tech jobs, then it’s just dragging the truckloads of minerals and wood across the border, and sending our educated kids south for jobs as well..

          • Yes, it’s a bidding war….called ‘beggar thy neighbour’ but it’s gone on for eons.

            And Ont has to move on from car plants and steel etc to the knowledge economy.

          • The US has a wonderful knowledge economy, and their economy is in shambles!

            Last thing that Ontario should be doing is to follow them. God knows they know how to screw things up all by themselves as it is. :^/

          • The US is stuck in the industrial age….which is why their economy is having such a struggle.

          • Stuck in the industrial age?


            No really…..


            They don’t even HAVE an industry anymore. All of those jobs went to China years ago! C’mon! Catch up! Didn’t you get the Globalism Memo back in the mid 1990’s?!?

            Wow! And I thought I was arguing with someone of a respectable mental calibre, too. Such a pity – if only I can just stop laughing for a moment…..

          • That’s right….stuck in the industrial age, when the world has moved on.

            Or did you think GM was high tech?

          • japan, on the other hand, has been enjoying a 20 year boom. Technology baby. It’s all about technology.

          • I hope you’re joking.

            Japan has been held back by it’s culture.

          • Their culture was a major advantage right up until 1990 or so. Now it’s a disadvantage. Glad you have this all figured out. We’d be lost without your worldly wisdom and omniscience.

          • It was never an advantage. Stop with the straw man arguments.

          • You’re right. A hard working, industrious and disciplined culture never did anyone any good. How foolish of me to introduce culture into this discussion. Just a strawman. Wait – who introduced culture into this discussion?

          • Japan’s public debt is more than 200 % of its annual GDP.

            If you want to argue in favour of that, be my guest.

            Since all you want to do on here is argue anyway…..

          • So I’m in favour of Japanese fiscal polices now am I? Good ol’ Em. Hand her a brush, she’ll paint herself into a corner, then deny she did any such thing.

            But I guess I shouldn’t make fun of you. Your inability to maintain logical consistency from one post to the next is hardly your fault. Nobody would choose to struggle with something like that.

          • Since you can’t discuss the topic, you’re done.


          • Adios?

          • Every once in a while she breaks up with me. Usually it’s with a ‘ciao’.

          • Yeah, that’s what I thought. I wonder what’s going on?

            “Adios” has a strong religious overtone, so It’s a pretty unusual thing for an old communist atheist like Emilechka to be suddenly making spiritual invocations in Spanish.

          • Ciao was sooo last week.

          • I’m going to have to respectfully disagree.

            While we can do everything we can to make our little place in the world an attractive place for private investment and job creation, if we have to pay companies to stay, then they’re not going to stay once the free lunch ends. Meanwhile, if we have to constantly prop up certain sectors just to make them ‘competitive’, then they’ll never be competitive.

            And this may also surprise you: The economy of the US is worse than what is generally talked about. The US Government has to print a lot of money (quantitative easing) just to keep things from falling apart – and there are a growing number of economic experts that say a collapse is pretty much now inevitable. True unemployment there is actually close to 25%. Over 47 million people are on food stamps. That is more people that have to rely on the government for food than the entire population of Canada! College kids will graduate from post-secondary schools there with soul crushing student debt, plus they’ll be saddled with the further burden of Obamacare, and there are no jobs to be found.

            Here is another fact that may surprise you: Americans are actually heading north to look for work as well as heading overseas for opportunities. That is in spite of the US Government’s claim that the economy has been recovering since 2009.

            You guys actually have a pretty great country here. You shouldn’t have to feel that you need to sell yourselves short just to compete globally.

          • Not quite,stimulus (You missed the class on Keynes) is working in US and deficit DOWN, employment and Gov revenue UP. Canada under Reagonomics/austerity falling behind and depending on US coat tails for recovery.

          • Guess that proves all those automatic spending cuts that kicked in last spring in the US helping them rather than hurting them. They only just reversed some of them last week.

      • The national railway was subsidized. Should that have been shouldered by private companies? Because if we’d left it to them, it wouldn’t have been built for many years (why go to the expense of building a rail line to communities that aren’t big enough to support them yet?)

        Infrastructure projects, especially those that would not make sense from a purely profit oriented analysis but help a significant portion of the public, are the exact kinds of projects that government should be funding.

    • Paradigm shift without the clutch.

      • Clutch? Wrong economy again.

        • Your age is showing once again. Glad you don’t get it.

          • No game-playing. This is serious. Ciao.

          • I was serious. You just don’t get it. Don’t feel bad.

          • It all depends on the gearbox (insert GlynnMhor’s “box” joke, from above, here)

    • “A paradigm shift.” That’s right up there with “new economy”. Nice to see you haven’t lost your love of vacuous, outdated corporate-speak. Next you’ll be lecturing us on “convergence” and “clusters” and “human capital”. Y2K just called. They want their buzzwords back.

      • Boy are YOU behind the times!

        • So it’s retro-cool now to use board-room jargon from the tech bubble era?
          Paradigm shift. Wow, if you manage to blow the dust off that fossil and bring it back, I will humbly acknowledge you as official Trendsetter of 2013.

          • I use words you’ll understand.

          • Like what, CON?

          • Since empty phrases by definition have no meaning, understanding them is moot.

          • It’s like a Dilbert cartoon meets Mary Worth.

          • Amazing isn’t it? Dilbert was created 2 decades ago just to make fun of people who think and talk like Emily. I guess we shouldn’t be surprised that the very targets of Dilbert humour are the last ones to get that it’s aimed at them. In fact, Dilbert cartoons hint at this very phenomena.

          • Absolutely. It’s the same phenomenon in which dumb people have no idea that they’re dumb, and will argue the most ridiculous things to an extreme degree, and are generally incapable of making any objective judgements at all about their own actions and decisions.

      • I hate those stupid biz-speak buzzwords. I’ve always hated the non-word “pro-active”.

        • They’ve become so sickeningly cliched that even making fun of them is now a tired cliche. Emily was in that sense quite right to accuse me of being behind the times when I called her on it. I haven’t had cause to poke fun at the phrase ‘paradigm shift’ since 2001. Of course I wouldn’t have had to yesterday either had she not invoked the offending phrase to begin with.

          • I just figured it out. What You are trying to say is, there’s been a paradigm shift into the knowledge economy, and at the end of the day, vacuous corporate jargon phrases will now have real meaning going forward, better enabling us to leverage our human capital and achieve lasting synergies, as long as we’re all on the same page and we avoid building silos within our organizational structures. Why didn’t you just tell us?

            Honestly, I would have hoped that Dilbert would be obsolete by now, but apparently there’s still a need as long as there are people like you uttering ‘new economy’ and ‘paradigm shift’.

          • There was a popular phrase back in the 70s….came from a book by Toffler….’Future Shock.’

            You’re suffering from it.

          • If by ‘future shock’ Alvin Toffler meant the overwhelming urge to vomit when exposed to meaningless corporate-speak gobbledygook, then I’m afflicted with a virulent strain. I’ve sat through enough speeches about “horizontal integration” and “attaining synergies” and “tearing down silos” that I’ve earned the right to ridicule that sort of language when I come across it.

            Perhaps my favourite speech of all time was by an HR flunky when I worked for a certain government department – it was called Leveraging Diversity in a Globalized Environment. Isn’t that a pretty sounding phrase? Leveraging diversity. It just rolls off the tongue…. along with my lunch.

          • I have no idea why you’re discussing some comic strip from the last century, or fussing about business buzzwords from that era either….the rest of us are discussing Cisco and the Ontario economy.

            If you can’t cope with the future….fine. Just don’t inflict it on me.

          • I see a future filled with more and more empty language and nauseating, self-serving, meaningless, jargon, used specifically to obfuscate instead of to communicate. And yes, I will have difficulty coping with it. Even more disturbing is that those who are most willing to embrace the vapid, empty language of the corporate news release are the most likely to rise through the ranks to positions of influence.

            I’m not the only one concerned. Taleb has written entire books on this subject, on the curses of “modernity” and “scientism” and how they’ve destroyed much of what was once good about our economy. You should try reading some of his work instead of Wikipedia all the time. You might learn something. A world built around meaningless boilerplate and hollow platitudes will be increasingly fragile and volatile, and this will benefit only a few. Therefore, Ms. Paradigm Shift New Economy, I will continue to ridicule those who speak the language. I believe it is necessary.

          • It has nothing whatever to do with language….you are simply lost.

          • Come on, Ranter. You just need to think outside the box ; )

          • True. Only then will Em and I be on the same page going forward.

          • Going forward… auugh… I hate that one!

          • Few (if any) of us want to even think about Emily’s box.

          • Thanks. Now cleaning keyboard, reaching for the mind-bleach.

    • Corporate welfare is a old mainstay of the crony capitalism long supported by the LPC-CPC coalition. Time to start paying attention.

      National economies with innovative technology sectors didn’t get there by millions in corporate giveaways. It’s a strategy that’s proven to fail.

      • Kindly read the thread.

      • Really? Name one.

  6. Lame economic analysis and middling polemic. Other than Moffatt lives there, author does not say why Ont govt should be responsible for wages and house prices of people in sw ont. People can move, it is not a long drive down the 401. I am against corporate welfare but it is age we live in now, Cisco is a good company and It makes sense for CIsco to be near Ottawa because it is one of Ont’s tech hubs.

    I work in auto sector and I think Alabama started the trend of offering companies subsidies to locate new business within prov. When companies are thinking of creating new plants now, a few provs/states will put together proposal to woo new firms.It is hard to move plants or operatons to new jurisdiction so Cisco should be in Canada for a while yet.

    And we subsidize failing companies which is even stupider than subsidizing profitable companies so this is not worst public policy in Ontario, never mind Canada, for 2013.

    • “I am against corporate welfare but it is age we live in now….”

      And that is where you lost me.

      We shouldn’t be paying corporations anything in order to set up shop. It’s one thing to lower corporate taxes and cut some red tape in order to lure in the business, but to pay these people, too? No way! They’ll just take the cash and run. I can’t support corporate welfare! No way!

    • You are gainfully employed?

  7. wahe guru Kathleen…..

  8. The rich get richer. The politicians have no clue and the poor, well who the hell cares?
    If each job has a cost of 112 thou a year why not just give the money away to unemployed people? That is what they are doing anyway. Giving piles of money to rich folk with a very narrow job pool is stupid

  9. This easily ranks as the worst Canadian public policy economics article of 2013. And to think that I almost convinced my son to get his Economics and Philosophy degree (minor in computer science) from Western where he might have been subjected to moronic lectures similar in quality to this article.

  10. According to the Globe and Mail: “The new positions expected over the next six years will be centred on R&D, with the potential to grow further to 5,000 employees by 2024.”

    This is definitely a smart investment. Canada is suffering from deplorable productivity growth. Harper wastes $6.3 billion a year on R&D subsidies that produce no results. The $200M investment here is a lot less than what Harper spends in a year, and its a much safer bet considering Cisco is investing $4B of its own money.

    In fact, Harper wastes over a billion a year subsidizing dirty oil alone. Yet neo-cons applaud Harper for wasting taxpayer money like that.

    BTW, Canadians would rather move to Ottawa to get a high-tech cutting-edge job than get shipped off to the middle of nowhere to work in an open-pit mine. But the neo-cons at Maclean’s believe turning Canadians into migrant workers is somehow best for the economy.

  11. I remember K. Wynne’s predecessor Dalton McGuinty giving away millions of Ontario’s dollars to Dell to set up call centers in Ottawa. In less than 3 years, they laid everyone off, packed up and left town with all the cash. This smells like more of the same corporate welfare that keeps getting the Ontario government further and further into debt.

  12. Eh. It’s only $200M thrown away this time. Usually with these clowns the waste creeps into the billions.


    • Privatize the profits, socialize the losses, maximize the graft.

  13. It’s fun to watch liberals come on here and trash Gordon and Moffat when they criticize the Liberals, then come back and say that the Conservatives are the anti-science anti-expert party.

    • First….you need experts.

    • I wish economists would give us science based economic analysis instead of another opinion based political tract.

      • Economics has become too “scientized” as it is. Read a few of Taleb’s books for an expansion on this, and the damage it is doing.

  14. Time to ditch the Liberals (aka Conservatives with a heart) and the Conservatives (Me first party) for the true progressive party, the NDP. In times like these, we need a party that stands up for the working class.

    • This is not 1918

    • Er … Tommy, yer such a card … Anyway, I’m a bit ambivalent
      about drawing attention to the Least Coast because nothing good
      ever comes of it … but among the several well-intentioned flubs of
      our late NDP saviours in NS were a couple of doozies.
      The threw a bunch of money at IBM and gave them a nice l’il contract
      to do some provincial IT stuff. They then laid off the provincial employees
      who did that work and worked so so hard to get them employed at IBM.
      IBM was happy to do so … on a contract basis at reduce wages. Made
      the CTF and maybe two other people so happy.
      They also threw a bunch of money at (don’t laugh, please) Blackberry ..
      last seen heading over the NB border in a cloud of pixie dust.
      The NDP gummint was very close behind them.

    • Maybe it’s time build a new government through Elizabeth May under the green banner? A fresh start away from the status quo and party dictatorships.

      • She’s not stupid, and she’s certainly hard-working, and she’s right to try to promote serious alternatives to the FPTP system, but she seems awfully out of her league when considering her for the job of PM. Her understanding of basic economics – an I mean basic – is woefully lacking.

        • So can’t she have staff to inform and advise her? Myself I’m not good at everything either.

          In this connected world maybe it’s time to have a transparent community of economists manage the information & advice to the politicians?

          Politicians are public relations people that we for some strange reason we allow them to run amuck with our long standing government departments & employees. How about the professionals that run these departments consult publicaly online under the watchful eye of the public including the many academic organizations and training institutions?

          Transparency could be the solution if we could reign in the politicians controlling the spy agencies and stop them from sabotaging encryption technologies so that countries could actually create the networks for super secure communities online.

          A Utopian dream I will admit, though, can you blame a guy for dreaming that together we could solve many of our countries issues and move on from pettiness and blame?

  15. I can’t disagree with this article. This is truly shameful. 112k per job. Cisco probably won’t even be around in 5 years, the tech sector changes very quickly. This is a colossal waste of money, it’s basically the government handing over money to a private company for nothing in return.

  16. This is the same province where this happened:

    “Nortel’s market capitalization fell from C$398
    billion in September 2000 to less than C$5 billion in August 2002, as
    Nortel’s stock price plunged from C$124 to C$0.47. When Nortel’s stock crashed, it took with it a wide swath of Canadian investors and pension funds and left 60,000 Nortel employees unemployed.”

    And now Wynne thinks it’s a good idea to hand over tax money to another company in the exact same industry.

    • Nortel. Blackberry. Now act as if Cisco will be around forever. It’s not the industry that is the problem. It’s the idea that we need to keep doing this at all. Even big box retailers won’t open a new location without getting concessions from the local governments first. Corporations of all kinds have turned into the biggest welfare vultures out there. Note that the same people who whine loudest on these threads about corporate tax cuts are the first ones to offer praise when governments hand out piles of money. It’s a strange mindset.

      • “Note that the same people who whine loudest on these threads about corporate tax cuts are the first ones to offer praise when governments hand out piles of money. It’s a strange mindset.”

        Truly. It’s difficult to comprehend.

        I agree with your comment, I only pointed out Nortel because it’s such blatant proof of the stupidity.

      • When you two are done congratulating each other, you should do some research. Comparing Cisco to Nortel is like comparing Microsoft to Corel.

        • Nortel and Blackberry were both world beaters. Titans in their respective industries. The comparison is apt.

          • World beaters? Titans? Ah, I had no idea.

            Aside from adjectives, can you back that up? Cisco and Microsoft have been damn near blue-chip stocks for decades, tied to the growth of the PC, gaming systems and the entire Internet. Can you point to a single life-threatening event in either country’s history?

            Nortel Never succeeded in establishing themselves as a dominant player in mobile, routing, VPN etc. And they inflated themselves so drastically through financial shenanigans that they created their own collapse.

            RIM was a genuine innovator until the peak of their success, at which point they stopped innovating and let the consumer electronics industry catch up to them and take all the oxygen in the market.

            Nortel and RIM looked impressive but their massive stock growth came and went in less than a decade and neither cemented their position as “world beaters”.

          • OK, so you don’t like my adjectives. The point is, when you look back on it, and back-fill the narrative about how things have gone for those companies, it can seem obvious why they collapsed, while others succeeded. But that’s only with the benefit of hindsight. When they were at the top of their game, there was nothing to indicate they wouldn’t become as established and entrenched as the Mircosofts and Ciscos of the world.

            And even established and entrenched companies can have sudden changes of fortune. GM. HP. K-Mart. I am not making a prediction about Cisco. Not at all. They could last another 500 years. My point is only that it can be awfully easy to pick what looks like a sure winner right now, only to end up holding the bag for a loser.

            There was a book that came out in the 1990s called Built to Last. In it, the author presented a very careful and thorough study of companies that had been around for decades, and what types of commonalities such companies had that made them successful for the long haul. Within a decade of that book coming out, many of the companies cited had either collapsed entirely or were seeking Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. The book is now frequently cited as an example of how impossible it is to predict corporate success or failure, regardless of track record.

          • There are no guarantees. Lucent, Compaq, Digital, Kodak, Sun Microsystems, Xerox, Motorola, Nokia. All of them powerful companies reduced to wreckage. Kodak in particular was a titan for many many years. Even Apple and IBM were both near death in the 90s, only to recover. When I say near death, I mean it, they were both on life support, and now they are both titans again.
            What TJ Cook is saying is completely false, Cisco could easily disappear within a few years.

  17. 200 Million. 1700 Jobs. So each ‘job’ is costing almost 118,000. This won’t be new employment either in a sector that has about a 3% unemployment rate the new jobs will just be people coming from other companies. This money would have been better spent to save the Kellogg’s and Hunt’s jobs. This is more Ontario Liberals smoke and mirrors.

  18. I am convinced, given their track record, that the Ontario Liberals will mess this up – hugely. But I find it refreshing that a reporter resists the temptation to write about Rob Ford and instead puts the focus on the incompetence of the Ontario government. There are so many, many examples – Ontario Hydro is probably my favorite.

  19. So who ya gonna call? Hudak? What’s his great idea? Race to the bottom “Right To Work” union busting legislation and wages that don’t quite rise to the poverty level – you know high enough above water so you can breathe. I don’t even know what the NDP’s brilliant idea is; my guess is if they have one they’re keeping it under wraps so no one can steal it, probably straight through the next election. There’s a reason Rob Ford was elected mayor of T.O. There were no viable candidates. Our “leaders” aren’t even particularly good bean counters but an original idea is a rumour they heard of on the wind and cowered under the sheets until they were sure it passed.

    • Hudak would be a much more successful leader than anybody the Liberals can offer up. The Liberals are on a completely unsustainable spending spree, and they’re making Ontario a laughing stock. All in order to stay elected so they can continue to run the province into the ground.

      • I would disagree with you. All the research and data across the world shows that austerity is the worst direction you could go. Hudak would make things worse and at the same time would make Ontario a poverty province. Actually, its too complex for Hudak to comprehend and the cronies that are advising him are the exact people who own the corporations which want “right to work” legislation so they can do away with unions and further dive our province into poverty. I would suggest the real problem is a federal one in that all these free trade deals is decimating our industries. GDP may be slightly up but that has to do with goods and services and nothing to do with breathing human beings and jobs.

        • So you think the Liberals will be able to spend their way out of deficit? By giving $200M to Cisco, one of the world’s most profitable companies?

          As you may have noticed, it’s unionized workplaces that are leaving the province in droves. Maybe “right to work” legislation would slow down all those jobs leaving.The ludicrous energy policies implemented by the Liberals that are driving electricity costs through the roof certainly aren’t helping either.

          And by the way, living within one’s means isn’t “austerity”, it’s simply being prudent.

          • Stimulus is working in US and deficit DOWN, employment and Gov revenue UP. Canada under Reagonomics/austerity falling behind and depending on US coat tails for recovery.

          • Hmm If you think about it, we had huge unions before and we were doing fine. What has changed? Well, all these free trade deals that have been badly negotiated has resulted in slave labour countries with few regulations receiving most of these jobs from western countries. So your solution is to attack the very people who were making the goods. Is industry suffering? No. They are flush with cash, refuse to spend on R&D because it’s cheaper to move out of the western countries then reinvest. As for energy costs, I would suggest you take a look anywhere and find costs going down. Right to work is simply right to work for wages the Chinese earn. It is wrong headed and truly a mark showing Hudak’s inability to grapple with complex issues.

          • We are losing the most jobs to countries with whom we do not have free trade agreements. Trade deals don’t explain jobs moving to Thailand, China or Honduras.

          • The bottom line is that we will become a have not country unless something is done. We are a country with branch plants so owners of companies will not do R&D or re-tool. They haven’t for decades because they were dependent on the cheap dollar. Innovation and invention will not work either because we have free trade deals all over the place and whatever we innovate or invent will be produced in cheaper labour and no regulation countries. What has happened is that we have allowed corporations to play countries like fiddles, States and provinces are vying for the same work but some states are paying for the move, educating the work force as well as the facilities which companies can use.

          • Again with the vague references to free trade deals “everywhere”. Once again you are reminded that we have no free trade deals with those countries that our unions compete with.

            The problem with unions is that they overvalue people that have no real skills. That was bound to go bust eventually. And so it has.

          • You do not do your moniker justice. Unions don’t overvalue people that have no skills but do value people over objects. I note with interest no word about the situation in Canada and indeed the rest of the west in terms of economics. Assuming that doing trade with one country is only moving goods made in that country is simplistic and fool hardy at best. Money does not have borders unlike governments and people.

          • So now you want to redefine what a free trade deal is in a futile attempt to twist the facts to suit your original assertion.

            Too funny.

    • Oh, and by the way. As the author of the article wrote, literally having no idea would be a better policy than the idea being floated by Wynne and the Liberals.

  20. >Cisco will be simply luring away workers that would have worked for
    other ICT companies (or who would have been hired anyway by Cisco even
    without the handout).

    This is highly likely to be entirely correct.

    >I cannot begin to even understand what the province is attempting to accomplish here.

    Follow the money and the players involved. Someone’s interests are being served.

    • Sounds like big oil in Alberta with the feds and the province pumping in money in an antiquated resource industry.

      • In reality the federal, provincial, and even municipal governments suck lavish quantities of money OUT of the oil industry. Income tax, EI, CPP, corporate income tax, employer and self-employed EI and CPP, excise tax (the special taxes on gasoline and diesel) GST-PST-HST, property tax, grants in lieu of property tax, grants to ‘first nations’, royalties, and a host of others.

        • It is indeed astounding to hear people argue that the oil industry costs governments money. Yet they make the argument all the time. They just love to bring up the ” subsidies” the oils sands get, when in fact they are referring to accelerated depreciation of capital cost, which is still not near as generous as the depreciation rates for manufacturing equipment (100 percent) or information technology infrastructure and software (55 percent to 100 percent). Failed basic accounting I guess.

        • All good point but the point I was making is that similar returns can occur with renewable energy. And, the profits would remain in Canada and not go to foreign owned companies.

          • So-called ‘renewable energy’ has been demonstrated to be a sinkhole for subsidies with minimal real returns on investment.

            Wind farms farm government money more than anything else.

            And profits represent less than 10% of the cash flow of most organizations, and in particular in the oil industry.

            It’s a trivial concern when the operations carried on in Canada is where the vast majority of the money goes.

  21. These Liberals are simply grasping at straws. They’ll spend untold billions of dollars yet in an effort to win re-election. They will continue to lie, steal and cheat since their voters don’t seem to care how corrupt the Liberals are.

  22. Its a myth that government can create jobs, at est they can inefficiently re-allocate jobs.

    If you remove (tax/debt) other people to pay for new jobs, the people with less money will unemploy someone else as they have less money to spend. This is immutable reality economics.

    Only buffoonery liberal-socialism economics idiocy thinks government can create jobs. This nonsense is designed to make government appear important, when in reality all they do is tax people more in the illusion and ruse that this policy will work. Sure, politicians will quote the jobs they inefficiently created but will not quote those with less money getting someone else laid off.

    Its a political fraud scheme to generate a image of governemtn cares, all governemtn wants is statism and tax greed, to subdue the people into economic submission for statism. We as a collective people are too easy to deceive.

    • No. Immutable reality economics take into account economies of scale. If I’m employing a bunch of workers and get taxed an extra $100, I’m probably not going to fire any of them.

      If that $100 gets put together with the $100 from some 2 million other people, that’s enough to build something significant.

      • That’s a bizarre hypothetical.

        The more likely scenario would take place when the guy employing you to clean washrooms is taxed an extra $100.

        The “immutable reality” would then apply to you alone and out the door you’d go.

  23. So the taxes people pay fro all this will unemploy 2000+ people elsewhere as taxpayers have less money to spend. I say 2000 as having union government waste time/money is a non-value added waste.

    But gives the people the false perception that governemtn can actually create jobs without removing them elsewhere. They want to ignore that taxing others to buy jobs elsewhere doesn’t unemploy people.

    • You really need to learn about economies of scale if you’re going to ever have a hope of understanding how taxation works.

  24. How can we believe her when in her TV video she does not even run on the proper side of the road? LOL

  25. As per unusual more money will get flushed down the toilet by these useless bozos and companies will continue to run as fast as they can away from Ontario.

  26. The only Jobs Kathleen Wynne and her liberals are worried about protecting…..are their own.
    And they don’t care how much of OUR money they have to piss-away to do it.

  27. Well I guess I can sum up..since Mr. LDawg05 can’t seem to come up with where his numbers are coming from and Mr. Halifax doesn’t want me to look at facts but when he does he states things like the Liberals cancelling gas plants t obuy votes but when it cpmes to Harper giving money to GM/Chrysler…”I was ticked when Harper bailed out the car compaines too……but I do realize he only did it due to the pressure of the Libs and NDP. Still don’t like the fact he caved into their demands though…..”. Why would he have been pressured except if he thought he’d loose an election if it got called. So he did the wrong thing to maintain power. Also, what’s stopping him from not giving out our cash now. He just got back in bed with Liberals to give $70 mil apiece to Ford. Not to mention both the provincial NDP and Mr. hudak said days before the provincial election that they would cancel the gas plants. Mr. hudal’s words ‘Done, done, done…now there was a good position to take when you were going to try and get a good deal on the cancellation cost.

    Now to the actual article and what was in the Globe today.


    apparently when Mr.Harper wants a free trade deal to boost his status his government is O.K. to help the diary farmers and Quebec. But a tomato plant in Leamington..Water Heater plant in Fergus…and so on. Don’t tell me we can’t do something about it. Obviously, if your the Prime Minister, not to hard.

  28. Still no Dawg.

    • look up further…

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