Queen’s rector faces impeachment

Students furious Nick Day used his title when defending Israeli Apartheid Week


 

Queen’s University rector Nick Day now says he regrets signing, with his official university title, a public letter to Michael Ignatieff that accused the Liberal leader of being complicit in “genocide.” On Monday, Ignatieff released a statement condemning Israeli Apartheid Week, calling it “an attack on the mutual respect that holds our society together,” and adding that “It is a dangerous cocktail of ignorance and intolerance.”

On Wednesday, Day issued his response calling Ignatieff’s statement “deeply unethical” and accused Israel of being responsible for the “biggest human rights tragedy of my generation,” and further stated that there is a “genocide happening in Palestine.”

As result of that letter, Day could find himself removed from office. Last night, the Queen’s Alma Mater Society voted unanimously to hold a referendum on Day’s impeachment after a petition signed by more than 2,200 students was submitted to student council.

At issue is that Day, who was elected to represent students in “matters pertaining to education” signed his letter as “Nick Day, Rector, Queen’s University, Kingston,” implying that his letter to Ignatieff was an official position of either the office of the rector, or the university itself.

In his statement to Ignatieff, Day also wrote that “If I ever used the influence of my office and the power of my public voice, as you have [. . .] I would have a very difficult time sleeping at night.”

A Facebook group setup to organize the impeachment drive states that what is “most troubling” is Day’s “claim that he was merely speaking for the students.”

Even Queen’s principal Daniel Woolf entered the controversy. He met with Day on Thursday, and then issued his own statement which read, “Mr. Day’s views do not and should not be seen as being representative of those of the University or Queen’s students.”

When campus paper, The Journal, interviewed Day, he said he regretted signing the letter as “rector,” but added that he was concerned that the substance of his argument was being ignored. “I have a need to publicly talk about Israeli Apartheid Week. I think that the letter receiving any more attention about what the rector is doing is detracting about what we should be talking about.”

Students will vote on whether or not to impeach Day March 22-23.


 

Queen’s rector faces impeachment

  1. Actually, when interviewed by the Journal he said he regrets that it upset people; he doesn’t regret the action itself. It’s like when people say ‘I’m sorry you feel that way’.

    I cannot wait until we get him out of office; it’s just been one embarrassment after another.

  2. @Queen’s Student,

    The journal reported that he regrets signing the letter as rector, even if he doesn’t regret the letter itself.

    This is what the paper wrote:

    “While Day said he regrets signing the letter off as ‘Rector,’ he said that he doesn’t regret writing or sending the letter to Ignatieff.”

  3. Hi Carson,

    You are indeed correct. I was referring to this quote:

    “…I regret that it’s upset a lot of people,” Day said.”

    and didn’t realize that there had been another one regarding signing/sending the letter.

  4. Nick Day is a sick man. Diagnosis is anti-Semite-schizophrenic.
    This chronic disease can not be cure.

    • Oh come on now you can’t believe the crap you just wrote. Nick Day may have… partisan views, to put it mildly, but so do those trying to impeach him. The one’s moving to impeach him should only be students who feel he no longer represents them and has gone outside the bounds of his office, not his political enemies who have long been looking to get rid of him for a while.

      When the campus conservative and israel organizations are the one’s who take him out, it sends the message that his views were “on the wrong side” and not the right message, which is that he shouldn’t have used his office as a soapbox for his views.

  5. In several hours, you’ve managed to get worse at journalism Robyn. Read the Journal again–Nick doesn’t regret signing it as rector, he regrets it upset so many people.

    Yet again, you lifted a quote from Nick’s rabble response and removed key content to suit your needs. You basically yadda yadda yadda’d the key part of Nick’s remarks about using the influence of one’s office: “I was elected to represent the approximately 20,000 students of Queen’s University. If I ever used the influence of my office and the power of my public voice, as you have *to insulate from criticism the perpetrator of a mass-slaughter* I would have a very difficult time sleeping at night.”

    Nick can sleep at night, as a representative of Queen’s students, precisely because he’s provided a researched argument (one backed by the UN no less). A misuse of public influence would be one that encourages the protection of perpetrators of mass-slaughter, as Ignatieff does in his condemnation of Israeli Apartheid Week. Nick is doing quite the opposite by openly discussing this violence, and supporting the open, anti-oppressive dialogue of events like IAW. This is how I’d like my elected representatives to use their public influence: to actually have an influence, to take a stand, and to speak out. We don’t need more ribbon cutters, hand-shakers, and smile-for-the-camera-type leaders. I want a leader with substance, intellect, passion, and politics NOT complacency. Good thing we at Queen’s have Nick Day.

    • “Researched by UN no less”.What a joke. Under the UN’s watch, millions died in Darfur,Rwanda,Serbia,Timor, to name a few. Today, killings and rapes are still going on in Darfur,Congo. Countries with absolute no regard for human rights and decency such as Libya (till a week ago) and Iran still occupy important positions in various bodies with “oversight” for human rights. The UN is a failed and dated concept. Wake up.

      • @ Lauren

        What world do you live in?

        Be sure that Nick Day regrets getting out of bed that day.
        And many long nights will pass before he sleeps well.
        In today’s world, nobody will give this rude and racist clown a job. He knows he ruin his future and personally I advise him to change his name if he ever wants to have a normal life.

        It is not only a disgrace to the university when he signs his name as rector, it is a disgrace that he was elected.

        It’d a good thing you at queens have Nick Day- because I don’t want a discriminating power abusing maniac like that at my university.

    • “Lauren”, or is that pseudo name for Nick Day ?

  6. The Arabs/Iran are building a false Myth.
    They will not be confused with real facts!
    Unfortunately some innocent people (or not?) from the west are joining the false chorus.

    By the Israeli law and practice all citizens are:
    Equal by low—–Full political rights—-– Equals in universal human rights ––religious freedom––Citizens express freely––Women equality––Social rights equality–- study on same universities—- sharing the same medical treatment in hospitals- serves as judges and lawyers- play in the same sport clubs–share equally all public infrastructures– and more…..

    Is this is apartheid??
    Should Israel changed in line to Muslims countries?

    The ridiculous call to change the above lows of some of so called human rights organization or democratic supporters!

    What s the status in Muslim countries?
    *Iran- more than 200 gays have been executed
    *Iran- Teachers were hanged up because teaching Bahai religion.
    *Iran Women low- Virgin women to be executed is raped by a guard ahead execution.
    *All over the Muslim countries: Christians are being persecuted and are under run.
    *Building or repairing of non Muslim shrines is either forbidden or severely restricted
    *Limited woman rights
    * Acceptable honor killing of doters and wife’s
    *People conversing from Islam to other religions may get by low death sentence
    * Political parties are either forbidden or limited.
    *Iran- By low only Shia Muslim cab be president, army chief, judge.

    The so called human rights organization or democratic supporters don’t blame, vote resolutions or demonstrate against Muslim countries.
    What is the definition of this behavior? Hypocrite!

    • Israel governs 14 million people -of them hardly 7 million have full citizenship rights-you can call it anything but democracy for all-
      it is a democracy for Jews and ethnic cleansing enterprise for all others – supported and advocated by western folks like you – simply because the non-Jewish 7 millions are invisible for you.

  7. why dont you students have zimbabwe ,iran,china,russia,sudan or yemen apartheid week what a bunch of hypocrites you are

    • Israel strips 7 million of people under its governance from basic human rights for more that 40 years while systematically annexing their lands. it was never done in modern history, even in apartheid south Africa the whites didn’t aim at continuously annexing land from the blacks

  8. As a Queen’s graduate (Artsci 74), I am absolutely appalled by Day’s wanton disregard for facts. Genocide and apartheid are defined as “systematic killing of a race or cultural group” and “a social policy or racial segregation involving political and economic and legal discrimination against people who are not whites….”. How did this graduate student(wow – bar for grad school admission at Queen’s must have slipped after I left)come to his conclusion? Despite the angst and disharmony prevailing between the Jews and their Palestinian co inhabitants in Israel, to label it “the worst genocide in my generation” is an absolute stretch. How did this brain washed moron ever got elected to the Rector position ? His continued lack of remorse and recognition of the silliness of his imbecilic act should compel the student body to impeach – very soon please. A quickie exit would avail ready membership to join Hamas, Iran’s revolutionary council or the Hezbollah, all entities with stated goals of the . elimination of the Jews, and hence the liberation of the Palestinians from the Israeli yolks. This would enable him to accomplish his noble desire in the soonest tangible fashion.

    • Israel is systematically eliminating a race and culture – but for practical considerations this is done in a slow-release fashion over almost one century- just to avoid meeting the criteria of Genocide- they are clever and you are a fan of this genius apartheid machine

  9. Lauren, Isreal is a democracy with regular elections. They have normal rights in Isreal (even Isreali Arabs have rights and can be/are elected to parliament). Most of the people you say are ‘slaughtered’ are people trying to attack Isrealis and kill them ie terrorists. In Jenin, the massacre turned out to be a very small number of civilians and about 50 terrorist militants all in a very small area. But, like most leftist, please don’t let the facts get in the way. If you like the arab states so much, please feel free to move there and leave Canada, I’m sure Iran would be much to your liking as they like to criticize Isreal.

    • Israel governs 14 million people- only 7 millions of them have citizenship rights- but unfortunately the other 7 millions are not visible to you up there

  10. Lauren, genocide is what happened in Rwanda, or in Hitlers Germany, or in Armenia. What happens in Isreal is normally referred to as self defense. Leftists, however, believe Isreal has no right to exist and should lay down and let the Muslims slaughter them.

    • RMB, you mention Hitler’s Germany. The Zionists learned a lot of lessons from the Nazis and applied them to speeding up their takeover of Palestine and the extermination or exiling of the Palestinians who resisted. Israel does not exert “self defense” but rather it seeks to protect and expand its illegal and immoral gains.

  11. FOR ALL THOSE WHO THINK THAT THE PALESTINIANS ARE THE WORST OFF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD

    The UN is not known for its love of Israel. If you check out the Human Development Report it published in 2007
    http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_20072008_EN_Indicator_tables.pdf
    (I didn’t see the territories listed in later reports, may be someone else can find them)you will discover the following countries were rated as worse off than the “Occupied Palestinian Territories:
    107 Indonesia 0.728 69.7 90.4 68.2 e 3,843 0.745 0.830 0.609 6
    108 Syrian Arab Republic 0.724 73.6 80.8 64.8 e 3,808 0.811 0.755 0.607 7
    109 Turkmenistan 0.713 62.6 98.8 .. r 3,838 h 0.627 0.903 0.609 5
    110 Nicaragua 0.710 71.9 76.7 70.6 e 3,674 n 0.782 0.747 0.601 6
    111 Moldova 0.708 68.4 99.1 d,l 69.7 e 2,100 0.724 0.892 0.508 25
    112 Egypt 0.708 70.7 71.4 76.9 e 4,337 0.761 0.732 0.629 -1
    113 Uzbekistan 0.702 66.8 .. d,j 73.8 e,h 2,063 0.696 0.906 0.505 25
    114 Mongolia 0.700 65.9 97.8 77.4 2,107 0.682 0.910 0.509 21
    115 Honduras 0.700 69.4 80.0 71.2 e 3,430 n 0.739 0.771 0.590 3
    116 Kyrgyzstan 0.696 65.6 98.7 77.7 1,927 0.676 0.917 0.494 29
    117 Bolivia 0.695 64.7 86.7 86.0 e,h 2,819 0.662 0.865 0.557 7
    118 Guatemala 0.689 69.7 69.1 67.3 e 4,568 n 0.746 0.685 0.638 -11
    119 Gabon 0.677 56.2 84.0 l 72.4 e,h 6,954 0.521 0.801 0.708 -35
    120 Vanuatu 0.674 69.3 74.0 63.4 e 3,225 n 0.738 0.705 0.580 2
    121 South Africa 0.674 50.8 82.4 77.0 h 11,110 n 0.430 0.806 0.786 -65
    122 Tajikistan 0.673 66.3 99.5 d 70.8 1,356 0.689 0.896 0.435 32
    123 Sao Tome and Principe 0.654 64.9 84.9 65.2 2,178 0.665 0.783 0.514 10
    124 Botswana 0.654 48.1 81.2 69.5 e 12,387 0.385 0.773 0.804 -70
    125 Namibia 0.650 51.6 85.0 64.7 e 7,586 n 0.444 0.783 0.723 -47
    126 Morocco 0.646 70.4 52.3 58.5 e 4,555 0.757 0.544 0.637 -18
    127 Equatorial Guinea 0.642 50.4 87.0 58.1 e,h 7,874 h,n 0.423 0.773 0.729 -54
    128 India 0.619 63.7 61.0 63.8 e 3,452 n 0.645 0.620 0.591 -11
    129 Solomon Islands 0.602 63.0 76.6 k 47.6 2,031 n 0.633 0.669 0.503 14
    130 Lao People’s Democratic Republic 0.601 63.2 68.7 61.5 2,039 0.637 0.663 0.503 11
    131 Cambodia 0.598 58.0 73.6 60.0 e 2,727 n 0.550 0.691 0.552 -6
    132 Myanmar 0.583 60.8 89.9 49.5 e 1,027 h,y 0.596 0.764 0.389 35
    133 Bhutan 0.579 64.7 47.0 v .. r .. h,z 0.662 0.485 0.589 -14
    134 Comoros 0.561 64.1 .. j 46.4 e 1,993 n 0.651 0.533 0.499 10
    135 Ghana 0.553 59.1 57.9 50.7 e 2,480 n 0.568 0.555 0.536 -8
    136 Pakistan 0.551 64.6 49.9 40.0 e 2,370 0.659 0.466 0.528 -8
    137 Mauritania 0.550 63.2 51.2 45.6 2,234 n 0.637 0.493 0.519 -5
    138 Lesotho 0.549 42.6 82.2 66.0 e 3,335 n 0.293 0.768 0.585 -17
    139 Congo 0.548 54.0 84.7 l 51.4 e 1,262 0.484 0.736 0.423 16
    140 Bangladesh 0.547 63.1 47.5 56.0 h 2,053 0.635 0.503 0.504 0
    141 Swaziland 0.547 40.9 79.6 59.8 e 4,824 0.265 0.730 0.647 -37
    142 Nepal 0.534 62.6 48.6 58.1 e 1,550 0.626 0.518 0.458 8
    143 Madagascar 0.533 58.4 70.7 59.7 e 923 0.557 0.670 0.371 27
    144 Cameroon 0.532 49.8 67.9 62.3 e 2,299 0.414 0.660 0.523 -13
    145 Papua New Guinea 0.530 56.9 57.3 40.7 e,h 2,563 n 0.532 0.518 0.541 -19
    146 Haiti 0.529 59.5 .. j .. r 1,663 n 0.575 0.542 0.469 2
    147 Sudan 0.526 57.4 60.9 aa 37.3 e 2,083 n 0.540 0.531 0.507 -10
    148 Kenya 0.521 52.1 73.6 60.6 e 1,240 0.451 0.693 0.420 9
    149 Djibouti 0.516 53.9 .. j 25.3 2,178 n 0.482 0.553 0.514 -15
    150 Timor-Leste 0.514 59.7 50.1 ab 72.0 e .. h,ac 0.578 0.574 0.390 16
    151 Zimbabwe 0.513 40.9 89.4 l 52.4 e,h 2,038 0.265 0.770 0.503 -9
    152 Togo 0.512 57.8 53.2 55.0 e 1,506 n 0.547 0.538 0.453 -1
    153 Yemen 0.508 61.5 54.1 l 55.2 930 0.608 0.545 0.372 16
    154 Uganda 0.505 49.7 66.8 63.0 e 1,454 n 0.412 0.655 0.447 -2
    155 Gambia 0.502 58.8 .. j 50.1 e,h 1,921 n 0.563 0.450 0.493 -9
    LOW HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
    156 Senegal 0.499 62.3 39.3 39.6 e 1,792 0.622 0.394 0.482 -9
    157 Eritrea 0.483 56.6 .. j 35.3 e 1,109 n 0.527 0.521 0.402 6
    158 Nigeria 0.470 46.5 69.1 l 56.2 e 1,128 0.359 0.648 0.404 4
    159 Tanzania (United Republic of)

  12. My apologies to everyone. I accidentally failed to post the continuation of the list of countries that are worse off than the territories:

    160 Guinea 0.456 54.8 29.5 45.1 e 2,316 0.497 0.347 0.524 -30
    161 Rwanda 0.452 45.2 64.9 50.9 e 1,206 n 0.337 0.602 0.416 -1
    162 Angola 0.446 41.7 67.4 25.6 e,h 2,335 n 0.279 0.535 0.526 -33
    163 Benin 0.437 55.4 34.7 50.7 e 1,141 0.506 0.400 0.406 -2
    164 Malawi 0.437 46.3 64.1 63.1 e 667 0.355 0.638 0.317 13
    165 Zambia 0.434 40.5 68.0 60.5 e 1,023 0.259 0.655 0.388 3
    166 Côte d’Ivoire 0.432 47.4 48.7 39.6 e,h 1,648 0.373 0.457 0.468 -17
    167 Burundi 0.413 48.5 59.3 37.9 e 699 n 0.391 0.522 0.325 9
    168 Congo (Democratic Republic of the) 0.411 45.8 67.2 33.7 e,h 714 n 0.346 0.560 0.328 7
    169 Ethiopia 0.406 51.8 35.9 42.1 e 1,055 n 0.446 0.380 0.393 -5
    170 Chad 0.388 50.4 25.7 37.5 e 1,427 n 0.423 0.296 0.444 -17
    171 Central African Republic 0.384 43.7 48.6 29.8 e,h 1,224 n 0.311 0.423 0.418 -13
    172 Mozambique 0.384 42.8 38.7 52.9 1,242 n 0.296 0.435 0.421 -16
    173 Mali 0.380 53.1 24.0 36.7 1,033 0.469 0.282 0.390 -8
    174 Niger 0.374 55.8 28.7 22.7 781 n 0.513 0.267 0.343 -1
    175 Guinea-Bissau 0.374 45.8 .. j 36.7 e,h 827 n 0.347 0.421 0.353 -4
    176 Burkina Faso 0.370 51.4 23.6 29.3 1,213 n 0.440 0.255 0.417 -17
    177 Sierra Leone 0.336 41.8 34.8 44.6 h 806 0.280 0.381 0.348 -5

    • Berel Dov Lerner, what’s your point? How do you rationalize the murder of tens of thousands of Palestinians and the forcible deportation of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians. Since you are so enamored with the U.N. how about agreeing with the hundreds of U.N. Resolutions that have condemned Zionist aggression in Palestine, that urged the right of return for Palestinians exiled by Zionists, that equated Zionism with racism, that recognized the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, that declared ‘invalid’ the Zionists attempts to unify Jerusalem as a Jewish capital, among many other issues.

  13. >>Nick is doing quite the opposite by openly discussing this violence, and supporting the open, anti-oppressive dialogue of events like IAW.

    Lauren:

    Open and anti-oppressive dialogue implies relatively equitable representation of all sides. IAW does no such thing. IAW is merely well-designed and well-funded agitprop rather than a reasonable forum for discussion. Evidently, you are incapable of realising your own role in what is essentially the spread of false propaganda, but are likely to be far too self-righteous to recognise that you are behaving as a mindless activist; in other words, you are a useful idiot.

  14. Just in case last night’s events did not make it into your local news:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4040974,00.html
    Horror in Samaria: Terrorist murders family of 5

    Terrorist stabs five family members to death in settlement of Itamar early Saturday; three children, including baby girl, among victims. Paramedic describes horrific sight, toys next to pools of blood
    Yair Altman

    Horror in Samaria: A terrorist infiltrated the West Bank settlement of Itamar, southeast of Nablus, early Saturday and stabbed five family members to death.
    The shocking attack occurred around 1 am as the terrorist entered the family home and murdered three children aged 11, 3, and a baby girl along with their parents. The victims were apparently sleeping as the killer came in.
    Itamar residents reported that shots were heard in the area; the terrorist managed to flee the scene.

    Three other children at the home, a 12-year-old girl and her two brothers, aged 6 and 2, were able to escape to a nearby house and inform their neighbors of the attack.

    The terrorist who carried out the massacre cut the fence surrounding Itamar and entered the home of the victims through the window, an initial probe of the murder showed. Authorities could not immediately discount the possibility that more than one attacker was involved in the murder.

    ‘Toys next to pools of blood’
    Following an initial report of the incident, large IDF and police forces rushed to the site. The Air Force also joined the effort to track down the terrorist, deploying numerous aircraft in the area. The night’s sky was lit up with flares, as special IDF and police forces were called in to assist in the manhunt.

    The IDF Spokesman’s Office said “troops are scouring the area in search of the suspect. The IDF is performing inspections at all crossing points set up in the region.”

    Magen David Adom ambulance service teams pronounced the victims dead at the scene. MDA spokesman Zaki Heller said the ambulance service got a call around 1 am and dispatched large teams of paramedics to the area.

    “When rescue forces entered the house they encountered a very difficult sight…There were five people there who were hurt. We could do nothing but pronounce them dead,” he said.

    Paramedic Kabaha Muayua was among the first responders at the site and described the horrific scene he encountered.

    “We could not help the first four stab victims. Following an inspection of the scene I spotted an infant of about three who still had a pulse. We engaged in lengthy resuscitation efforts but had to pronounce him dead,” he said. “The murder scene was shocking. Kids’ toys right next to pools of blood.”

    Paramedic Gil Moscowitz, who serves as MDA’s director of operations, said teams dispatched to the home discovered “parents and three children who were brutally murdered.”

    “The parents were lying next to each other in their room…we found three bodies in the master bedroom; the two parents and a baby,” he said.

    • we are against killing of innocents -any were- but a major concern is that people like you are selective and didn’t say anything about killing over 400 children in December 2008 by Israel in Gaza operation – many of those killings of children were documented by live TV broadcasts.

    • Lerner, there is absolutely no evidence as to the identity of the perpetrators, much less that they were Palestinians. Be that as it may, if Jews are attempting to live on land they stole from the Palestinians they should not be surprised if there are consequences.

  15. I think it’s important to recall what Michael Ignatieff himself said in this Guardian article about nine years ago: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/apr/19/israel3

    “When I looked down at the West Bank, at the settlements like Crusader forts occupying the high ground, at the Israeli security cordon along the Jordan river closing off the Palestinian lands from Jordan, I knew I was not looking down at a state or the beginnings of one, but at a Bantustan, one of those pseudo-states created in the dying years of apartheid to keep the African population under control.”

    Is Ignatieff an anti-Semite?

    • The Zionists have had a policy for decades on occupying high ground. One of the most egregious examples is the massacre at Deir Yassin where two Zionist terror gangs murdered some 100 of the 600 Palestinian inhabitants who, by the way, had signed a peace treaty with neighbouring Jewish settlements. The Zionist murderers went on to loot the homes of Deir Yassin. Jerusalem’s neighborhood of Givat Shaul Bet was built on what had been Deir Yassin’s land, now considered part of Har Nof, an Orthodox Jewish area. Ironically, Holocaust memorial museum, Yad Vashem, was built only 1.5 miles away.

  16. 1) Selective? The supporters of the Palestinians do not seem very eager to mention Israeli victims, and since these murders just happened I thought it worth mentioning.
    2)Peter Beacham is so wrapped up with hating Israelis that he cannot even bring himself to admit there is anything wrong with slitting the throat of a baby. Peter, go get yourself a mirror and take a long look at what you have become.
    3) Of course the Palestinians have suffered in this conflict. And I am perfectly willing to admit that sometimes Israel has treated them badly, and the whole thing is very sad. However, it must also be the Palestinians have also refused to accept reasonable offers of statehood, and their Arab brothers have kept them locked up in refugee camps for three generations, refusing to grant them full rights of citizenship. Many millions of people become refugees during the wars of the 1940s, and today many millions of their grandchildren do not live in the exact same homes their grandparents fled from more than half a century ago. I can understand that this is an emotional issue, but anyone who genuinely interested in peace (i.e., who does not demand terms that mean Israel must commit national suicide)should understand that pushing for the “right of return” is simply not the way to go. If they weren’t being used as political pawns, the Sunni-Moslem Arabs who fled the war of 1948 would have quickly taken up their lives within the huge swaths of land controlled by their Sunni-Moslem Arab brothers and sisters, not far from their previous homes. The Arabs fought the war of 1948 with genocidal intentions – “to push the Jews into the sea.” They did not succeed. However, even in those early days of the conflict some Jews became refugees within their own land – for instance, Jews were forced out of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem. Their Jewish brothers did not keep them pent-up in refugee camps to serve as political pawns.
    4) The use of words like “genocide” in the Palestinian context is simply ridiculous. The word “genocide” was invented to cover cases like that of the Jews in WWII Europe: at the end of the period, 6,000,000 Jews had been killed and it took decades for the Jewish People to return to pre-war numbers. How can you say that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza while under Israeli administration they have become one of the fastest growing populations in the world? If only the Jews of Europe had suffered such a “genocide”!

    • Lerner, there are no “Israeli victims”. There are only Zionist occupiers. Why should other Arab states grant citizenship to Palestinians expelled from their homes by Zionists? That would only legitimize the Zionist land grab and the murder of tens of thousands of Palestinians by Zionists.The right of right is necessary if only to have Zionists undertake atonement for their 115 year creeping invasion of the Palestinian lands. There can never be a purely Jewish homeland built on the murder or exile of hundreds of thousands of other people whose land and assets those Jews coveted. The Palestinian Holocaust is ongoing and justice will prevail.

      • @Peter Beacham

        OK, so how about the fact the Jewish people were there just a few thousand years ago? Why is that not important? Selective standards?

  17. @Berel Dev Lerner

    1. If we are talking about violent murders, then to be fair we should count victims on both the sides. Here the Palestinian casualty figures are much much higher than the Israeli casualty figures. It is easy to understand why-Israel has air power, tanks, army and US to bankroll them-Palestinians have none of these. Israel has bombed apartment buildings, done house demolitions and boarded ships on the high seas. Supporters of Israel turn a blind eye to them and always ask supporters of Palestinian rights to go protest every other injustice in the world-from Tibet to Sudan, but not the injustice meted out to Palestinians.

    2. If you say that Palestinian refugees should roll over and give up their right of return then it is a matter for Palestinians to decide. They have a right to return and only they can negotiate that. So far Israel has never admitted any culpability for ethnically cleansing the Palestinians. At one time they even refused to acknowledge the existence of Palestinians. To say that Jordan, Lebanon and other Arab countries have a responsibility to settle the Palestinians is missing the point. Israel and backers of Israel are responsible for the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem and they are yet to demonstrate a good faith attempt to settle it.

    3. To say that the use of the word “Genocide” is ridiculous in the Palestinian context is to apply a fraudulent moral calculus. The destruction of a society and forcing them out of their own land is deeply immoral. In Gaza and West bank they are forced to live a very deficient life. Israel blockades Gaza and bombs them at will. It is a testimony to the resilience of the Palestinina people that they steadfastly refuse to roll over and die. The historical and diplomatic record on the Israel Palestinian issue is clear-Israel does not want peace. Moshe Dyan once said “We shall treat you like dogs and see how many leaves” (paraphrased -for exact quote see Noam Chomsky’s The Fateful Triangle” ). The supporters of Israel does not want these facts to become known to the general population because this will undermine the support the US and Canadian Governments give to Israel.

    • @Skeptic – for a “skeptic” you don’t seem to apply much critical thought to the claims of Palestinian supporters.
      1)Sorry, but you are being simplistic by equating a “moral calculus” with the counting of the dead. When one side loses a war, they usually suffer more casualties. That does not mean that the victors are always on the wrong side. Perhaps the Gazans should have thought about Israel having all those planes, etc. before electing crazy antisemites who believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and support genocide against Israelis as a policy option. Perhaps they could have devoted their efforts to developing the territories which Israel relinquished instead of turning them into a bridgehead for attacks.
      As for “every other injustice in the world”: I am very concerned about the Arab-Israeli conflict because it is happening in my backyard. I do find it strange that people in Canada can get so worked up about the plight of the Palestinians when there are 70 nations living in worse conditions.
      As for American bankrolling: much of that aid is tied to the peace treaty with Egypt. Under the stipulations of that treaty, Israel ceded a huge amount of land – the entire Sinai Peninsula – land which was the only thing that kept Egyptian tanks from running through the streets of Tel Aviv in 1973. Quite legitimately, Israel receives aid to buy weapons that could help relieve the huge risk Israel was taking by giving up that land. By the way, under that peace treaty, Egypt (quite oddly) has received billions of dollars of US military aid (to make up for its great sacrifice of receiving the Sinai Peninsula on a silver platter?). Unfortunately, as wikileaks has made clear to anyone who still didn’t know, Egypt has consistently used that money to prepare itself for a future war against Israel.
      2)If the Arab states had not attacked in 1948, there would be no refugee problem, and so they deserve quite a bit of the blame. Secondly, there is a point at which the exquisite right of grandchildren to live in the same exact houses and villages as their grandparents had sixty-odd years ago must make way for the elementary pragmatism (and respect for other people’s conflicting rights)needed for us all to get on living our lives in beter conditions then we do at present.
      3)I am sorry, but genocide has traditionally referred to the wholesale destruction of a particular ethnic group. If you use it to describe other kinds of situations you must be prepared to have people point out your lie. As for the conditions of life for Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank – see the UN statistics cited above. Is Indonesia committing genocide against its own people by submitting them to conditions worse than those suffered by the Palestinians? If you are so sure that “the Israelis do not want peace” what do you think would have happened if Arafat had accepted Ehud Barak’s offer of Palestinian statehood before he unleashed the terror campaign known as the Intifada Al Aqsa?

      • Lerner, as you say, “genocide has traditionally referred to the wholesale destruction of a particular ethnic group.” This is an excellent description of what the Zionists have done and continue to do to the Palestinians for 115 years. Your point, “if the Arab states had not attacked in 1948, there would be no refugee problem” is disingenuous in the extreme. Palestinians were forcibly removed from their homes by the hundreds of thousands by Zionist terror groups and told not to return. Zionists then moved into their homes and businesses. You keep trying to shift attention from the Zionist atrocities to living conditions in other countries. That is not viable. All you accomplish with this line of argument is to demonstrate is that you have no justification for the Zionist invasion of Palestine.

      • @Lerner

        You wrote:” When one side loses a war, they usually suffer more casualties. That does not mean that the victors are always on the wrong side.”

        In the Israeli Palestinian issue, the historical records are clear. There was a deliberate effort to push out Palestinians and establish the State of Israel on their land. The Palestinians that were pushed out were civilians and not part of any army. Your attempt is one of false generalization. Israel is wrong both legally and morally. International Law prohibits acquiring territory by war. Israel did that in 1967. Simple moral considerations would tell you that it is wrong to drive away a society to make way for Israel.

        We are worried about Israel Palestine issue because what has been done to Palestinians is deeply wrong. Sure there are other injustices in the world. The difference is that I am not telling anyone which injustice they must fight against whereas you are telling us to turn a blind eye to the injustice to Palestinians.

        Regarding the military aid to Egypt, let us look back on the historical record. In 1967 Israel attacked and captured West Bank, Gaza and a large chunk of Egyptian territory. Subsequently Anwar Sadat offered a peace deal which said that he will have peace with Israel if Israel would give back Egyptian Land. Israel haughtily rejected the demand. In 1973 Sadat attacked and Israel’s backers realized that Egypt is one Arab country with a credible threat. So they decided to neutralize that threat by giving back Egyptian territory and giving aid to Sadat and his successor Hosni Mubarak. Recall how the present Prime Minister of Israel wanted the West to support Hosni. So much for the chest beatings we see for Democracy.(See The Fateful Triangle by Noam Chomsky for the details on the offer by Sadat and its rejection by Israel).

        Regarding the statement that “If the Arab states had not attacked in 1948, there would be no refugee problem”, I would say that the Zionist plan to ethnically cleanse the land of Palestinians have been well documented even by Historians like Benny Morris who claim that it was okay to drive out Palestinians to establish the State of Israel (Check out Morris’s interview at the Haaretz. Also check out other standard histories to understand that there was an agreement between Ben-Gurion and Jordan to carve up the Palestinian land.

        Lastly, virtually the whole world, barring Israel and USA and another 5 or 6 countries, has been endorsing the two state solution. Israel in defiance of the World opinion and in defiance of the International Law has constructed settlements on Occupied territory.

  18. @Sceptic

    1. Israel has a right to defend itself. Research the town of Sderot for example. If Hamas is building rockets to harm Israeli citizens (which are both Arab and Jewish, among others) in a certain house, Israel has a right to take means to prevent that. The Israeli army values human life tremendously. They do everything in their utmost, while still trying to protect their citizens, to limit loss of human life.

    If you want to get into what happened in late May last year, it is not the responsibility of a group of individuals to take matters into their own hand if they disagree with a policy. Israel has a blockade to screen incoming parcels to ensure they don’t contain material which could be used for bomb making. They were given ample warning that they can have their packages screened by a neutral third party, and they refused. As a result, the Israeli Defense Force boarded and they were attacked with weapons. Why would a bunch of peaceful people insist that they deliver it themselves when they know they won’t succeed, and then have weapons on board?

    2. Right of return? Look into the time of the Romans and even earlier. The Jewish people have had that land for centuries. Why is there a statute of limitations on that? Do Jewish people not count? Are we less important?

    3. Israel does not ethnically cleanse the people of Palestine. During World War 2, the Nazis rounded up the Jewish people (amongst other groups), placed them in camps, and gassed them. That is ethnic cleansing. If Israel truly wanted to do the same, you can be sure they would have wiped the people of Gaza off the map by now. But they haven’t. They are in favour of coexisting. They only do what they need to do as a means of protection for their people.

    If you reply, don’t reply with quotes by fervent anti-Israel people such as Chomsky. Don’t reply by saying well Israel is out to destroy everyone and must be annihilated. Explain to me why Israel must:
    A) Not protect its own citizens in the face of attacks.
    B) Vacate the premises completely when they were there hundreds of years ago.
    C) Cease to exist.

    And please explain to me why you are not in favour of coexisting and instead want to destroy Israel.

    I wrote in the other post by Robyn Urback on this topic. IAW, as always, fails to accomplish its goal. All levels of government condemn it, and they do so with reason. Main reason is its counter-productive, and does nothing to facilitate peace.

    However, what it does accomplish is it makes Canadian Jewish students who support Israel feel unwanted and uncomfortable on campus. The people who organize IAW do everything in their power to silence Israel supporters, intimdate them sometimes, and allow only their political agenda to be heard. Free speech? I think not.

    Bottom line: Which is why Nick Day had no right to say on behalf of all Queen’s students that IAW shouldn’t be condemned.

    – The intended purpose is unsuccessful, and accomplishes nothing. The situation does not change for the better or the worse, regardless of who you ask.

    – Canadian citizens are made to feel unwanted.

    Successful? You tell me.

    And by the way. Boycott all Israeli products? Turn off your computer, and your cell phone, and pretty much most technological devices that you use since they were all made in Israel. Now you wouldn’t want to spoil your perfectly created campaigns by being a hypocrite would you…

    • R., your claim that “the Jewish people have had that land for centuries” is a spurious argument. Jews only held Palestine from 1250-721 BC, some 529 years. The Romans held Palestine from 63BC-638CE, some 701 years. Using your criteria, Palestine should be part of Italy. Muslims held Palestine from 638AD-1914AD minus a 90-year period when it was held by the Crusaders, for a total of 1184 years. Again, using your own criteria, Muslims have more than twice times the right of Jews to hold Palestine. Egypt has held Palestine for several millenniums in total, so the Egyptian claim to Palestine is several times more validate that of the Jews using your criteria.

      • Peter, is that you? I thought you would be too embarrassed to continue posting after I pointed out your apparent inability to condemn the deliberate murder of a three month old baby. And then you go on taking about “genocide” in reference to the Palestinians when their numbers have increased so dramatically while under Israeli control? Peter, Peter, Peter. Let me try to make this clear to you one last time. People who want to make a significant change in the world do not have infinite time and energy to expend. I can understand why here in Israel (and I am an Israeli) lots of people are very concerned about the situation of the Palestinians because, after all, it is a problem in our own back (or front?) yard. However, I do find it bizarre that Canadians living on the other side of the planet should invest so much energy on this issue when, as the UN points out, there are seventy nations – some of them quite large, such as India, Indonesia, and Egypt, each with populations numbering many times over the total sum of Palestinians and Israelis together, whose people live in worse conditions than than do the Palestinians under Israeli rule. I think that objective people who have read these posts realize that the Arab-Israeli conflict is complicated, not susceptible to obvious and simple solutions, and that a case can be made for the Israeli side which renders the one-dimensional demonization of Israel intellectually dishonest.
        And so, dear readers, ask yourself this skeptical question: with all the suffering going on in the world, why is it that the Palestinians get so much attention? If you are good Marxists, you might follow the money trail to the oil-rich Arab nations (and you might want to look at the role played by Saudi Arabia, that bastion of human rights, in your university). You might also consider how the dictators of the middle east have consistently emphasized their conflict with Israel in order to divert attention from their own massive corruption and the suffering they cause their own people. You might consider the psychology of Europeans whose bad conscience regarding the Holocaust can be assuaged by pretending that the Jews are just as bad as the Nazis. And then there are the cowards who hope that by throwing Israel to the wolves they may be spared another 9/11.
        And by the way, if you are really worried about the possible genocide of the Palestinians, I suggest you try to keep the Iranians from getting the Bomb. If there is a nuclear strike against Tel Aviv, you can kiss much of the West Bank goodbye.

  19. Lerner, you love to switch topics in order to avoid having to deal with the fact of the attempted creeping Zionist of Palestine. Just because some other countries are claimed to worse to live in that Israel, Gaza and the West Bank are for Palestinians that says nothing about the mass murder and expelling of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians by Zionists and the ghettoizing of the remaining Palestinians. Incidentally, despite your claim, there is no case to be made for the Israeli side other than it is guilty of genocide and wholesale theft. As for your contention that everyone else is blame for the Middle East situation – oil-rich Arab nations and Europeans – except the Israelis is disingenuousness of the highest order. There would be no Middle East situation if it were not for 115 year Zionist campaign to steal someoneelse’s land.

    You are correct, however, it noticing that the Zionists learned well the lessons of control, subjugation, and elimination from the Nazis and are busy applying those atrocities as we converse.

    Oh, yes, once again, you attempt to change the topic by bringing up the notion of Iran and nuclear bombing, all the while forgetting that Israel has plenty of nuclear weapons itself and, as the world has seen, Israel has zero conscience about using any means to complete its takeover of Palestine and to maintain that grip. Fortunately, history has a way of equalizing injustices, so Zionists can expect consequences for their actions.

    Your ‘arguments’ are all logically flawed or off topic, which, of course, is itself a logical error. There is no way you can justify the genocide or the land grab practiced by Zionists.

    • QUOTE “There would be no Middle East situation if it were not for 115 year Zionist campaign to steal someone else’s land.”

      So without Zionism I suppose the Turkish absentee landlords would not have repressed the Falaheen, the Sykes Picot agreement would never have implemented Franco-Britanic colonialism, King Farouk’s obscene regime would never have been overthrown by Nasser, King Hussein’s father would never have been shot in front of him, there would be no war in Libya now and on and on. According to you all these problems were the result of the “Zionist campaign to steal someone else’s land” and without the Zionists the Middle East would today be a tranquil oasis of peace.

      Totally aside from an absolute disregard for the facts of history this is, once again, hyperbole and Group 1 logic (anything Israel does is wrong and, by extension now, anything wrong is Israel’s fault). I am impressed, however, by the irony of you stating that another persons arguments “are all logically flawed”. Bravo.

      Oh, and before you do exactly what you have accused others of doing, which is change the topic, and before you go off on another anti-Israel diatribe, I hasten to point out that what I am challenging you on is not your opinion of Israel – you are welcome to it – but your claim that “There would be **NO** Middle East situation if it were not for 115 year Zionist campaign to steal someone else’s land.” Untrue, inflammatory and this extremism and ignoring of actual history is counterproductive.

      More light less heat please.

      • McMaster Faculty, if that is your version of logic you had better enroll in philosophy 101 and learn about non sequiturs in the introductory logic section in that you intentionally attempted to move from a discussion about the Zionist occupation of Palestine some other unrelated events. In addition, you attempted to inject those events into the discussion in order to claim that the Zionist genocide and mass land grab is not so bad compared to the other events you cite. All that you have accomplished is to admit that there was a Zionist genocide and land grab but are trying soften its effects by pointing to some unrelated effects. Berel Dov Lerner has already tried and failed in that attempt by listing some other countries that poor living conditions (which, of course, has nothing at all to do with the Zionist genocide under discussion. But thanks for your participation buy try to stay on topic and use elementary logic.

    • @Peter Beacham

      QUOTE:
      “You are correct, however, it noticing that the Zionists learned well the lessons of control, subjugation, and elimination from the Nazis and are busy applying those atrocities as we converse. ”

      I feel sick writing this, but you are so incredibly wrong in that statement.

      The Nazis rounded up Jewish people (amongst others) in cattle cars, which were filled beyond capacity, drove them into work/death camps, gassed half of them to death under the false premise they’re having a shower, and worked the others nearly to death. In the process, they killed 6 million Jews. They were meticulous in their work, keeping very good records to ensure they exterminate every last Jew on the face of the earth.

      I have visited the remains of these concentration camps. I have seen the gas chambers. I have heard the stories.

      I have also been to Israel.

      In Israel, the people of Palestine are entitled to their own home in the West Bank. They are not rounded up in cattle cars. They are not undergoing forced labour. Most importantly, they are not being gassed to death.

      Israel has imposed a blockade so they can screen packages coming in to prevent them from developping missiles and bombs to attack Israeli citizens. Whether you agree with this or not, is another story.

      HOWEVER, to declare that what is happening in Israel and what is happening in Palestine is identical is 100% anti-antisemitic (and I don’t use that term lightly), bigoted, racist, and downright sick.

      Carry in in your own world, since you are so far under you’ll probably never see reality again.

      I respect peoples’ rights to opinions and free speech. However, your claim is baseless, disgusting, and wrong on so many levels.

      • Sorry. Should read to declare what happened in Germany and what is happening now in Israel the same

      • R., you are conveniently leaving out the tens of thousand of Palestinians murdered by the Zionists in order to grab the land they now claim. In addition, there are the hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (some of whom I have met personally) who were forcibly deported at gunpoint by the Irgun, the Stern Gang (Lehi) thugs. You are omitting to mention the ghettoization of existing Palestinians in what is currently referred to as “Israel” and their decidedly second class citizen status. Everything that happened to the Jews under Nazism, the Zionists have done to the Palestinians.

        It is quite nonsensical for Zionists to label those who tell the awful truth about the history of the treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of Zionists as ‘antisemitic’. First, that is an argumentum ad hominem and the last resort of those who cannot defend the actions of the indefensible Zionists. Second, the Palestinians are a semite people so it would not make any sense to label those who support Palestinians aspirations for nationhood as ‘antisemites’ The Zionist use of ‘anti-semite’ is merely a diversion to draw attention and passion away from the atrocities committed and still being committed by Zionists against the Palestinians.

  20. It is waste of time and effort to argue with Peter Beacham. He is not the only one that is completely blind and deaf to any sensible argument. He is a rabid Jew hater that made up his mind and don’t bother him with facts He will parrot over and over the propaganda line of the Palestinian terrorists and their supporters like a broken record. Just ignore him and his ilk.

    • Another argumentum ad hominem, balabu. In fact there were four of them in just three of your sentences. This logical fallacy of yours is the last resort of Zionists who cannot defend their indefensible creeping takeover of Palestine.

      Oh, yes, we are discussing an issue, not, as you claim, arguing. If you have some facts to present and can do so in an organized way then, by all means, join in. If not, you only weaken whatever case others try to make to explain away the Zionist genocide and continuing apartheid.

      • Sorry I haven’t had time to get back to you Peter, so here is a quick note.
        1)
        You claim the Palestinians are suffering from genocide and I pointed out that according to UN statistics they are living better than their Syrian and Egyptian neighbors and that their numbers have grown at a fantastic rate since Israel took control of the West Bank and Gaza. Somehow you think that none of this has bearing on the question of whether they are being subjected to genocide. IN OTHER WORDS – BEWARE! ISRAEL’S RADICAL CRITICS HAVE DRAINED THE WORD “GENOCIDE” OF ALL MEANING.
        2) You claim I blamed the Arab/Israeli conflict on the Europeans, oil-rich Arab states, etc. No, please pay more attention when you read. I said that the wildly disproportionate attention paid to the grievances of the Palestinians stems from the influence of Arab oil-exporters, guilt-ridden Europeans, etc.
        3) I am glad that you mentioned Israeli nuclear weapons. I believe ISRAEL IS ACTUALLY THE ONLY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WHICH DESERVES TO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS. IT IS THE ONLY COUNTRY THAT NEEDS THEM because it is the only country facing enemies who have declared its actual destruction to be a policy goal IT IS THE ONLY COUNTRY WHICH CAN BE TRUSTED WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS because it is the only country to have passed the test of not using them in time of dire need. When the Egyptians and Syrians launched a surprise attack on Israel on Yom Kippur of 1973, Israel already had nuclear weapons and there was every indication that the very survival of the state was in jeopardy. Yet Israel demonstrated restraint and did not use the bomb. No other nuclear country has yet proven such self-restraint.

  21. This page, this full sheet of arguments shows exactly why this conflict will likely never be resolved. Everyone wants to blame the other and feel some sort of vindication. The Palestinians are angry that their land is being taken and they’re being attacked. The Israelis are angry because they say the land was theirs long before the Palestinians ever settled. THere’s no right answer here and as long as you people just can’t concede that there are wrongs on both sides you will fight for the next 1000 years. Theres a point where “winning” is just pointless anymore. Seriously if you put your huge efforts towards a peace agreement and stop citing “he did this” “they did that” everyone would be so much further ahead.

    • Merilyn, your conclusion is a bit to simple. The Jews agreed to the UN plan the creation of a Palestinian state alongside Israel in 1948 and the Arabs rejected it, declaring a war which they hoped would wipe out the Jewish presence in the area. The West Bank and Gaza remained in Arab hands for the next 19 years, but for some reason Egypt and Jordan did not think it worthwhile to set up a Palestinian state there. Ehud Barak made a very generous offer of statehood to the Palestinians and they replied with the Intifada Al Aqsa. I would put things differently from you: if the Arabs refuse to genuinely accept the existence of the State of Israel, the conflict will continue for the next 1000 years.