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English Canada: they hate just like us!


 

Philippe Gohier: The year is still young, but here’s the lede to beat so far for 2010:

“English Canadians have a more favourable view of immigrants and Jews than they do of Francophone Quebecers.”

To put the story in context, it’s about a poll done for Jack Jedwab’s Association for Canadian Studies. The survey found that the only ethnic (is that right?) group more disliked by English Canadians than Aboriginals was Francophone Quebecers. And as the Journal de Montréal’s lede makes clear, their shock in all this doesn’t stem from the fact Quebecers aren’t all that popular, but that they’re less so than EVEN THE JEWS AND THE IMMIGRANTS !!!

Imagine that.

Martin Patriquin: Ha! That’s cute. This is the newspaper, remember, that has been torquing Jedwab’s surveys for fun and profit for as long as I can remember. (A note: “immigrants and Jews?” Imagine if these two mystical forces combined to make some sort of immigrant Super Jew. Hell hath no blintzes.) When it comes to ‘identity’ stories, this is what the Journal does (and it does it well): it provokes French Quebec’s insecurity on issues of language and culture, then sells it back to Quebecers, headlines blazing.

Me, I’m a glass half full guy. And the glass is arguably more than half full. If you parse Jedwab’s numbers, as Jean-François Lisée did recently, you’ll notice that it actually isn’t a love/hate thing at all. Apparently, the bastion of anti-Quebec hatred is in New Brunswick (in part because of this). Just over 14 percent of New Brunswickers hate us. About nine percent love us, which means 77 percent of the province is neither here nor there on Quebec. Alberta? 17 percent love us, about 12 percent hate us. (And, thanks to their petro dollars, they all send us transfer payments so we can pay for our bloated social programs. Merci, les amis.) I don’t notice the love/hate thing as much as the great, big mushy middle.

It’s also worth noting that 6.5 percent of Francophones ‘detest’ Jews, while the same percentage of English Canadians ‘detest’ Native Canadians (or Amerindians’) as the survey puts it. So, French and English Canada might hate different minority groups, but we hate them to the same degree. There’s hope for this country yet.

PG: I don’t think the survey itself says much that wasn’t already known. Part of my job involves reading all the stupid comments that get reported on this site and it’s quickly disabused me of any notion that we’re on the cusp of widespread harmony.

Besides, I wouldn’t even know how to answer a question about whether I have a favourable or unfavourable view of an entire group, if only because I often love and hate a people for the same thing. (For example, I both love and hate the fact Torontonians think whole-wheat baguettes are a good idea. So long as I don’t actually want a decent baguette, that is; then, I just hate them.)

That said, I’m surprised at how forthcoming English Canadians were regarding their animosity towards Quebec Francophones. I mean, even in Ontario, where I’m pretty sure it’s a government-mandated duty to pretend to like everyone and everything about their culture in order to embody some platonic ideal of Orientalism, only 60 per cent of people are cool with Francophone Quebecers. What gives?

MP: That’s a good point. Asking if you love or hate an entire ethnic/cultural group is sort of inviting blanket declarations, isn’t it? It’s assuming that you have feelings/thoughts/notions about entire groups of people. You might or you might not, but just asking the question seems to assume that you do. Not only that, the survey does the work for you by whittling down the choices to four.

As to your question about animosity towards Quebec Francophones: I put the question to Jim Duff once–yes, the devoted and formerly angry Anglo who, it should be said, loves Quebec and all its petty miseries to death–and he said there is a streak of Loyalist resentment running through much of Ontario, particularly outside of Toronto, where people still believe they conquered the French, and that the French should start acting appropriately. I wish I could find the email, because he described it way more eloquently. He has a point: this is where The Alliance for the Preservation of English in Canada (paging Senator Runciman!) and other associated mouthbreathers inevitably start.

Of course, this only accounts for Ontario–though Ontario is the centre of the universe, as you well know.

PG: I’m not sure I buy into old-timey Loyalist affections as the reason Ontarians or anyone else resents Francophone Quebecers, no matter how eloquently it’s expressed. It’s entirely possible, but something else appears to be at play here. With the notable exception of Aboriginals, the one thing that pops out from survey is that it’s not familiarity that breeds contempt among Canadians and Quebecers. There are, after all, virtually no Jews in Quebec outside Montreal and there are relatively few Francophone Quebecers outside la belle province. And yet, both those groups rank pretty high on the Jedwab animosity-o-meter. Granted, it’s a very small minority in both Quebec and Canada that harbours these resentments, but in both cases they seem to be drawing from the same well of cultural conservatism. Perhaps English Canadians and Francophone Quebecers, especially the ones that hate each other, have a lot more in common than they ever thought.

MP: Maybe it’s partly a urban-rural split thing. For example: Quebecers outside of Montreal often have strange and magnificently ignorant notions about the city. For the most part people from outside Montreal don’t know that proverbial Jew/immigrant/minority/what-have-you; these non-MTLers only have a vague idea that, because they are from the cesspool of greed and filth, these “groups” must be inherently greedy and filthy. I’m generalizing, but you get the idea.

Similarly, people from outside of Quebec often have vague and wrongheaded notions about the province–notions fed by what they see in the news (Quebec is whiny; Quebec only wants more; the separatists eat babies, etc.) It’s easy to hate from afar, I guess.


 
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English Canada: they hate just like us!

  1. Must be a blue cheese curd at the bottom. :)

    [just kidding – wanted to give PG a stupid comment that will get reported on this site]

  2. "It's easy to hate from afar, I guess."

    Bingo.

  3. Should be: Love Hate Meter

    • Metre is Canadian!! Meter is not.

  4. It's difficult to be likable and play victim at the same time. Anglo Gentile Ontarians see Quebeckers and Jews and especially Indians (I don't do the Euphemism Treadmill) complaining non-stop about racism and language and such, and it's not behaviour that is designed to be endearing, but rather to be effective.

    Take the Tamils who shut down Ottawa and Toronto last year with their protests: they're not stupid, they know that's going to piss people off, they just don't care. They quite deliberately are not looking to be liked by Canadians and used tactics they knew would incite contempt against the Tamil community. If there is antipathy towards Tamils now in Canada, Canadians can hardly be accused of racism since it was Tamil contempt for Canadians that led to it., and that goes for a number of other groups in Canada.

    Kudos to you Martin for being the first Quebecker in history to acknowledge – and, astonishingly, show gratitude – that Quebec's social programs (and vaunted culture industry, I might add) are paid for with Anglo tax dollars. Normally Quebeckers like to insult Anglo Canadians for having no culture – I especially enjoy this when they do it in Ontario workplaces – while remaining wholly oblivious to the fact that you chumps would be amusing yourselves with finger puppets without Anglo tax dollars.

    If we are lacking in culture in English Canada it's in part because we sent all of our money to Quebec and don't have any money left for our own culture. Additionally, the English word for "culture" that is bought and paid for by the government is "propaganda" (the yiddish "kitsch" works here too), and it is generally eschewed here.

    • "Quebec's social programs (and vaunted culture industry, I might add) are paid for with Anglo tax dollars."

      I believe the exact sentence was:

      "And, thanks to their petro dollars, they all send us transfer payments so we can pay for our bloated social programs"

      That's petro dollars, not anglo tax dollars. And to say that the equalization payments pay Quebec's social programs in full or that Quebec's social programs always has been paid by equalization payments is an equally ignorant statement.

      • Ah, there's the famous ingratitude that has caused so much ethnic loathing.

        Alberta oil royalties are just over $2 billion, Quebec's transfer payments exceed $8 billion, Alberta petrodollars don't come close to paying the whole shot and never have, hence, fail.

        Face it: Quebec is an non-viable, unsustainable, failed economy heavily dependent on foreign (see what I did there?) aid, sort of like Haiti. You can accuse better educated and more informed fact-bearing Anglos like me of ignorance till you are blue in the face, but a "thank you" would seem more apropos.

        • http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

          <<Equalization entitlements are determined by measuring provinces' ability to <b>raise revenues – known as “fiscal capacity”.>>

          That would NOT be Québec's ability to spend revenues, as you suggest. I mean you could argue that the money would be better spent than on giving kids the best start in life through support and education, but that's not up to you 'better educated and more informed fact-bearing Anglos'.

          Do you also want to suggest that Albertan federal tax payers are receiving oil-royalties? Because of the oil business Alberta an Saskatchewan have more federal tax-payers contributing to equalisation payments. But oil royalties? that mostly stay in the provinces.

          To say that petro dollars pay for Quebec's social program is false. To say the french benefit from the english is also false. Quebec is not a failed economy. Alberta is not paying for everything in Canada. Equalisation payments have nothing to do with lingual favoritism, racial discrimination, socialistic stifling, or provincial entitlements. It's simply a program of national unity that transfer money from areas of financial prosperity( even the fleeting ones) to areas less fortunate. Nothing more, nothing less.

          • If I take your point, you are saying yes Quebec benefits from tax dollars from provinces outside Quebec but it's not a French/English thing per se. I can live with that concept.

            However, some % of my tax dollars have gone to you, while none of your have gone to me. I am a Canadian so I'm fine with that – but to put it bluntly, financially at least, Quebec would be worse off as its own nation than as a province in Canada.

          • If you were a retail clerk working minimum wage in Alberta and I was a highly ranked administrator of a highly prosperous company in Quebec, you would receive more of my taxes than I would receive of yours. Alberta still receive transfers from the federal transfer to the provinces, it simply receives less per capita than the other provinces.

            You're right though, at the moment the economy is not in favour of Quebec's industry and it is better off as a province than as a nation. We'll just have to see what happens when the economy turns in favour of green industries. There I think Quebec is ahead of the pack. Not just in green energy but also in the production of environmentally friendly products.

          • You are 100% wrong, it doesn't matter what position you have in the economy, Quebecer suck in on average around $1,000 per person. Here in Alberta we pay on average around $5,000 per person. An average retail clerk in Alberta sees all of their tax dollars flow to Quebec, the higly ranked administrator (government employee I'm assuming since Quebec doesn't have any real industries) is sucking in on average $1,000 from Alberta.

            I might be wrong but I was always under the impression Quebec hasn't paid into equalization since its inception. The minute Quebecers were net contributors I'm sure the whole equalization program would explode in a complete irony loop.

          • I pay taxes in QC. Anyone with the same taxable income as me in any province pays the same federal income tax. Period.

            Last time I looked, I paid 40 % more Qc income tax than federal. I pay 5 % GST just like everyone in Canada, I pay 7.5% of 105 % QST, ie 58% more to Qc than Ottawa.

            In Alberta there is no PST and prov. income tax is less than 50% of federal, so how do they collect all the money to send to us ? Is there a clandestine printing press ?

            Where the F__K is all my money going ?

            Oh and Keith, were not quite as bad as Haiti, yet, we havent got around to cutting down all the trees.

        • http://www.fin.gc.ca/fedprov/eqp-eng.asp

          <<Equalization entitlements are determined by measuring provinces' ability to <b>raise revenues – known as “fiscal capacity”.>>

          That would NOT be Québec's ability to spend revenues, as you suggest. I mean you could argue that the money would be better spent than on giving kids the best start in life through support and education, but that's not up to you 'better educated and more informed fact-bearing Anglos'.

          Do you also want to suggest that Albertan federal tax payers are receiving oil-royalties? Because of the oil business Alberta an Saskatchewan have more federal tax-payers contributing to equalisation payments. But oil royalties? that mostly stay in the provinces.

          To say that petro dollars pay for Quebec's social program is false. To say the french benefit from the english is also false. Quebec is not a failed economy. Alberta is not paying for everything in Canada. Equalisation payments have nothing to do with lingual favoritism, racial discrimination, socialistic stifling, or provincial entitlements. It's simply a program of national unity that transfer money from areas of financial prosperity( even the fleeting ones) to areas less fortunate. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • I guess I'm 4 weeks late, but reading such nonsense about Québec economy, federal transfer payments et al just makes me plain sick. Where the hell do you people live? How much money goes to Ottawa and the federal goverment from Québec taxpayers in total? 8 billions? The transfer payments are just the icing on the cake and the cake is in Ontario where the bulk of the federal infrastructures are located and related spending happens. To say that most of the tax dollars go to Québec because of transfer payment is not only ignorant, it's downright false.

      Next time you're "fact-bearing", keep your pants on. Your ignorance is showing.

  5. Actualy were heading to Quebec for the first time in many years. No I am not a Quebecer fan and the place I am going is not held by the BLOC. But I thought a change might be good. We'll see after I get back if your worth it. Besides I like to see where all my money that you guys stole from Confederation went.

  6. Be careful Zhimmy….in some parts of Quebec you can't get in a bar or restaurant if you're English.

    St. Jean to be precise.

  7. Can we separate the people from the province? Is the perceived hatred towards the province or the francophones in it?

    I live in a community in Northern Ontario where francophones represents an 83% majority over anglophones. This being a town in rural Ontario everything is run in english by the french. It's uncanny how submissive the french are here despite their majority, and how arogant the english remains here depite their minority. La FESFO failed to produce a "proud to be french" movement in our communities.

    As for me I've lived in Quebec for a while after college and it was a shock to me, despite everything the anglophones told me about Quebec back home, that I would like it. I like how the social programs are there as support and less as control; an ideological opposite of Ontario. I love the province, but I hate the ignorant and judgmental people that makes it what it is.

  8. (a) What's an English Canadian?
    (b) Better still, how does a survey that determines New Brunswickers hate francophone Quebecois distinguish amongst New brunswickers, given that they have the largest proportion of francophones anywhere else in the country.
    (c) What if New Brunswickers (or any other so-called English Canaidans) hate anglo-Quebecois as much as the francophone variety?
    (d) Last week you said New Brusnwickers against the hydro deal because they 'hate' French people. This week you suggest the reverse may be true? Which is it?

    Not to give this survey any more credibility than the grain of sand it deserves, but it, like your critcique of it, are based on a lot of wholly illogical assumptions about Canada's (and New Brunswick's) population.

  9. here's a clue to as to why some animosity may exist – people who speak English are described as Canadians, yet people who speak French are referred to as Quebecers. That doesn't always go unnoticed in "English Canada"….just sayin'!

  10. I love the graphic. It defines English Canada's love hate relationship with the onion ring compared to Stephen Harper.

  11. I know the source of the hate. I'm an English speaking Canadian with a French sur-name whose family has lived in a bi-cultural town in Southern Ontario for almost 2 centuries. My first experience with hate came when I visited my girl-friend's family in a neighbouring (uni-cultural) town. Her Uncle's and relatives spewed constant slurs like 'Dogan', 'Frenchie', etc..

    It's simple Racism, spurred by religious hatred. Her family was of Scottish/Irish-protestant background and when they immigrated here, they brought their hate with them. Since the only Catholics around were of French-Canadian ancestry, guess who they decided to hate?

    It's sad and pathetic that racism and religious hatred that existed hundreds of years ago in Europe was imported to Canada and directed at it's inhabitants (natives included).

    You know the old saying 'What goes around, comes around'. In time (I believe it has already started) other new immigrant groups will be importing their racism and religious hatred to Canada, and this time the inhabitants will be English Canadians…

    Signed,
    A non-religious, non-hyphenated Canadian

    • you may have experienced hate, but you didn't experience racism, unless you consider French-Canadians a separate race.

      • By your definition Jewish-Germans would not be a race. According to that logic they didn't experience racism, just religious hatred?

        I don't consider French-Canadians to be a seperate race from English-Canadians. But when hatred is practised based on ethnic background, it is still racism, and it is ugly.

  12. Any insights of the feelings Quebeckers have about francophone from outside of Quebec? How about the Anglophones feelings about francophones outside Quebec? How do they feel about Metis and Acadians?

  13. This is ridiculous. Is there a news magazine in Canada that isn't a tabloid?

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