'End of Men' author: women are avoiding men, and men are becoming childish - Macleans.ca

‘End of Men’ author: women are avoiding men, and men are becoming childish

Hanna Rosin in conversation with Brian Bethune

On women avoiding men, men becoming childish and other consequences of female power

Joshua Roberts/Getty Images

Hanna Rosin, an award-winning American journalist, began investigating the developed world’s new socio-economic order in 2009, after the Great Recession hit the U.S. and the year female employment began to outstrip that of men. Rosin gathered the various strands of profound change—women dominating higher education and the fastest-growing economic sectors, the destruction of traditional middle-class marriage, and even women’s increasing aggression and violence—into her new book, The End of Men and the Rise of Women.

Q: More than one commentator has pointed out the apparently doom-laden symbolism of a woman chronicling the decline of men; “Like a man writing The Feminine Mystique,” noted one. What do you think?

A: Despite the title, the book is really more about the rise of women than the end of men. And maybe men don’t do that endless self-reflection and temperature-taking that women do. And they don’t do gender social movements all that enthusiastically either.

Q: It’s not news that the old physical economy with its traditionally male jobs is passing or that women are flourishing in the new one. What is news is the mounting evidence of the effects of those changes.

A: Exactly. And we know too that women do better in college then men—women reached parity there in the ’80s—but it took a generation before we started to really feel the effects. Now the next generation is getting ready to marry, and so you have male-female relations in the news. Early adulthood happens to be the time when women are doing unequivocally better than men. They have better prospects, they do better in school, they embrace opportunity, it’s easier for them to make more money before kids come into the picture. It’s also the moment when we make our big decisions about life. And we view each other in vastly different ways than we used to.

Q: Perhaps precisely because women think that relationships are important, young elite women are trying to avoid them, on the basis that they will limit their careers.

A: That is my point. We focus on the minute-to-minute of the hookup culture in college, but what we miss is the larger picture. Now it’s women who are avoiding getting entangled, an avoidance that’s really important to them in order to establish their careers. But it’s not that they want a world in which there’s no connection at all; they want a world in which they’re able to sort of dabble in relationships. In America, at least, the college-educated get married, and their marriages are stronger than ever, so the hookup culture has not killed marriage, not yet. We’re not where Europe is. And I don’t know Canada, though from my interviews with Canadians you seem to be moving more quickly than us toward a world like Europe’s. But Americans are not there: people who are college-educated having children together and not getting married. In America we love marriage, so we still all get married, except the non-college-educated: that’s where marriage is disappearing.

Q: So there is a large class element in this?

A: Class is a huge part of it, and I explicitly broke up my book into class chapters because I feel that this is largely misunderstood. People say “Marriage is ending.” Well, you know, like everything else—at least in America—marriage is a class privilege. Marriage is not ending for the college-educated classes, but for everybody else the consequences of female power is the end of marriage, the obsolescence of men. It’s men dropping out of civil society and not really getting to be part of the workforce, the church community or their own families. That’s like 70 per cent of America. That’s terrible. In fact, reading it made me very protectionist, I have to say. I suddenly started to think, like, “Why did we ship those jobs [abroad]? Perhaps we shouldn’t have done that. And for what, so cereal could be 20 cents cheaper?”

Q: You show women becoming more like men in everything from dodging romantic entanglements to cutthroat success on Wall Street, but men are not becoming more feminine. In fact, they seem to be becoming more childish.

A: I do feel like they’re a little bit stuck, but it’s not clear what the next male role models are. And I think some of that is pop culture’s fault. What do they have? Judd Apatow movies of guys who are sort of drifting and slightly childish and need the women to kind of tell them what to do? I actually think we’re moving out of that, starting to relax around these different role models. Which is not to say every man is going to become a nurse and every man is going to become a stay-at-home dad, but we can think in different ways about how to incorporate traditional manly virtues into this slightly feminized world we live in.

Q: As far as considering male-female outcomes in a nature vs. nurture way, you don’t think much of nature. The prevailing cultural narrative is more important?

A: I was having this same conversation yesterday about where we have visceral revulsions, and where we should have them. That flinch when one sees a man on a Tuesday afternoon in a playground taking care of his kids; the line in our head that goes, “What’s wrong with him?”—that needs to go away. But what about the man as protector? That’s been with us for a long, long time.

Q: For the 70 per cent of Americans without higher education, marriage is crumbling, with women increasingly willing to do without a spouse. Does marriage remain an ideal?

A: The most compelling research shows that women are in fact very idealistic about marriage. We have all internalized the idea that marriage should be a satisfying union of life partners and not a union of convenience. But women, more employed and employable and often better off financially, are setting the bar high, and the men aren’t meeting it. Single women’s incomes were [once] low, and married women’s incomes used to drop after divorce; now, increasingly, they rise, because women tend to work more after a divorce and they have more options than before. And they don’t have the men to support any more.

Q: You contrast declining violent male assaults on women (at least in some areas of the U.S.) with reports of increasing violence by women. How do the two connect?

A: I think the decline in assaults definitely has to do with female power, but not power in the literal physical sense, but economic independence, and the fact that women largely control the rights to housing and can kick men out in ways they couldn’t before. While domestic violence stats are very complicated, they show that, on paper at least, women are increasingly the aggressors. But that reluctance to see women as physical aggressors, and that chivalrous hesitation, still remain. But those early aggression studies from the ’60s and ’70s about women did not necessarily show them to be inherently less aggressive, just that women would block the natural consequences of those feelings, swallow their anger. Now because more women are getting arrested, because we see women on TV beating each other up, because all of our heroines lately are kick-ass . . . Like Katniss Everdeen from The Hunger Games. She is a classic aggressive male provider: unpleasant, self-sufficient, a total protector of her family. Those are all things that we associate with men—pioneer men, basically. Twenty years ago Katniss Everdeen would have been a bizarre and unacceptable character, and now she seems completely natural.

Q: The new matriarchy is not all roses for women or, especially, kids. Children with involved fathers are literally smarter.

A: For the non-college-educated, what’s not great is that women are doing absolutely everything, and that life is quite difficult for them. They’re raising children alone and going to school, so there’s some kind of power and independence. They don’t want to deal with men who can’t find work or stick in school, but there’s also a whole lot of hard life and exhaustion. Fatherlessness is especially bad for boys. Without them, over time you get mothers going to some kind of school, and their daughters following them, but not their sons. This is the inner-city American, African-American community, a matriarchy. We’ve seen it play out that way over the last 40 years, and people are predicting it will play out the same way in Latino and white communities. When work disappears, the fast-disappearing middle class follows.

Q: How is what’s happening to women economically playing out politically in America?

A: Almost every American family, conservative or not, is dependent on the ambition and economic power of women, so it’s a non-starter to even raise the subject of banning abortion or restricting access to contraception. I mean, that’s just silly. It is the most conservative states who have this male unemployment problem in spades, and where people are not getting married and women are raising children alone. Politically, you can see it in the fight over the single woman, who is one of the big demographics that both the Democrats and the Republicans are trying to appeal to, but the Republicans are doing it in a funny way. Women could never allow these restrictions to happen, not even conservative women, because they need to work, it’s just a fact. And it’s conservative women who really need to work.


‘End of Men’ author: women are avoiding men, and men are becoming childish

  1. I’ll have to visit her planet some day. You forgot to mention which one she came from.

    • Venus, no doubt.

      • Venus would be the best guess until we explore the heavens more,
        cuz so far we haven’t found the planet “Bitter, Angry, Old, Man Hating Skank”.

        • Where in any of that interview does she give you the idea she hates men? Stating the fact that most offshored jobs have negatively affected men worse than women is flagging a problem that needs attention– in order to help men maintain economic and social worth– and is the opposite of man-hating.

          • “…And we know too that women do better in college then men…”.
            “… women are doing unequivocally better than men, … they do better in school, they embrace opportunity,…”
            “…not great is that women are doing absolutely everything…”
            “…every American family, conservative or not, is dependent on the ambition and economic power of women..”
            “…are setting the bar high, and the men aren’t meeting it….”
            “…They don’t want to deal with men who can’t find work or stick in school, but there’s also a whole lot of hard life and exhaustion”
            Yeah, I’d say there is quite a bit of man hating and male bashing B.S. going on in this literary piece of shit. And if you choose not to see it Derek I would venture that you are just the sort of New Age immasculated metrosexual that this “Bitter-Angry-Old-Man-Hating-Skank” is so reveling in feeling superior to.

  2. When things are one way for thousands of years……and then suddenly switch, over just 50 years……there are bound to be upheavals and questions and problems.

    Sounds like an interesting book.

    • I don’t see how men “choosing not to play the game” is a problem. Women can marry other women or just get cats. Women these days either don’t really WANT men or actually HATE THEM (real feminists do). Look at the bile coming out of Roberts… she has NO USE for any man, clearly. Well, men have no use for women like her anyways. So you can earn a living. BIG DEAL. Men have been doing that for “thousands of years”.

      When you can be good wives and mothers again, look us up. Maybe we’ll put down our video games and porn long enough to give a damn.

      • Men who hate women and want to dominate them are closet gays

  3. Whats that you say?! Women dominating in collage? In Careers!? Men dropping out of school? Quite the role reversal. I doubt men will see any of that affirmative action though. No no guys. We’re on our own. ‘Cause we’re guys! We can take it. Remember, it’s weak and pathetic to complain. You don’t want to look weak do you?….. I wonder if the Mafia is taking resumes. I hear they have a good retirement package. FML

  4. There’s no more incentive for men to do the heavy lifting in society. The future is going to be like many parts of Africa where the men laze around and play cards in cool huts while the women toil all day and feed the family. The men are sought after whereas the women are not, they are merely workers. Well it was a good run for this civilization thing anyway.

    • Watch the number of TV commercials where the male is the “Dufus”. The feminine movement would go ballistic if we did the same thing to woman. I warn my sons not to accept the ‘”Dufus” attitude and persona as so many of the young men and boys do. They believe it’s “cute” to appear stupid, act dumb, and don’t try and achieve anything.

  5. Women try harder. We work for less. Unfortunately many men did not see the merit of equal pay for work of equal value. When the Canadian economy faltered in the 80s, companies found ways to cut costs so they cut the high end salaries (mostly men), and as things began to pick up and women in support roles gained accounting designations, and other degrees, diplomas their salaries increased and they went up with the tide of better times. Here’s to all the women who could balance education at night, worked long hours during the day, kids, parents, the whole unbelievable scene of the 80s, 90s and now. If you have/had a supportive spouse, you were/are lucky indeed. If you did it alone, you deserve a medal and a great salary.
    Something else: Girls excel in school so boys have become reluctant to compete. They used to tell girls we were poor at math & science.That is a myth! It was our culture that objectified girls and pushed them towards the make up aisles. East Indian, Asian & Middle Eastern women are engineers & scientists just as their brothers are; they don’t have a problem with the sciences. The number of female physicians, accountants and scientists is increasing rapidly in Canada. Nature abhors a vacuum; women figured it out.
    Women do not want weak males, but as a society, we have to find better ways to motivate young men. Too many are confused as to what their role should be. Maybe the culture is denegrating males and their potential through inane movies and techno toys. If they have lost the ability to communicate, that alone will hold them back.

    • “Women try harder. We work for less. Unfortunately many men did not see the merit of equal pay for work of equal value”
      Holy martyr batman! Sniff Blubber. We work soooo hard and nobody appreciates us Waaaaaaaaaaa.
      Piss off bitch.

      • You just validated what was said about men being childish.
        You can go have another tantrum now.

        • Tantrum? No I simply didn’t feel that this whiny, blubbering bitch’s self pitying wail deserved a lengthy posting. My point could be summed up in a much shorter but more blunt comment.

          • Now, for what it’s worth I too believe many men are becoming childish. But really so are women. (A fact that I notice you don’t acknowledge too quickly in your snotty haste to bash those evil men.)
            Again for what it’s worth I go into a slow burn when I go into a convenience store & see the cover of a Maxim magazine. When Maxim first started out I bought it for a few month’s until it’s overwhelming obnoxiousness began to wear on even MY nerves. Then I stopped, sickened by what I read and angry as hell at the immature, urban, metrosexual weasels who wrote such garbage.
            But women have become childish too. How many time have you seen a 32 year old in her 5th year of university changing her major for the third time sitting in the bar dressed like she’s 18 and saying about how she’ll never have a “brat”. (No, THAT would cut into your partying time wouldn’t it bitch?)
            I could go on about examples of BOTH sexes becoming ever increasingly childish. But I don’t have time to devote to such a long rant.
            I DO get sick however, of bitchy bags like this dried out cougar hag Rosin (above) an…”award winning journmalist” … (holy cow are there any NON- award winning journalists?) I mean for fux sake! Is that all journalists do is sit around and praise each other.
            Anyhow I get sick of dried up bags like her endlessly whining about women carry sssoooo much of a load and how hard done by they are. Oh STFU!
            There are lots of men out there who bust their asses working USEFUL jobs in the trades and serving in the army reserve. Volunteering with youth groups and supporting a family, keeping their marriage together — (GEE – THEIR OPPOSITE SEX marriage – how about that?).
            These men also pay their mortgages instead of pissing them away living beyond their means.
            Then they tend to get a bit upset when they read some tiresome whining bitch bashing men while she sits on aged menopausal divorced, cougar ass complaining.
            So fuck you you fucking snot.

          • Wow…bitches, bags & cougars….oh yes, and fucking snots….
            Amazingly most of your derogatory terms have to do with the aging of women…”a 32 year old dressed like she’s 18…”; “…bitchy bags like this dried out cougar hag…”; “…I get sick of dried up bags…”; “….some tiresome whining big bashing men while she sits on aged menopausal divorced cougar ass complaining.”
            I guess you’d be okay with bitching women if they just didn’t get old. That is why some men are perpetual boys. They can’t appreciate a mature woman. For themselves they want to be Micheal Douglas with Catherine Zeta-Jones. They just can’t face it that Catherine is in it for the money and the fame and they don’t appreciate that Judi Dench has soooo much more to offer.

    • Eh…. Sorry toots, but times have changed, the plight of the suffragette is now that the mission has been accomplished, what do we do now that there is no longer a glass ceiling to rail against… other than invent a new one.
      “Women try harder. We work for less. Unfortunately many men did not see the merit of equal pay for work of equal value” This mantra doesn’t hold any water anymore. “Equal Value” used to be “Equal Job” until the women complaining about this realized that the don’t want to do the same jobs men do. Do a quick search for statistics and you would find that women, especially those of the work & family I-want-it-all description typically don’t do the same work as men in the same position. Typically, the do take more days off and will stay late a lot less than a man who’s still expected to put their job first, family when they have the time, because we’re still raised to believe that being the breadwinner is tantamount to self worth.
      The other problem with the “Men still make more money on average” argument is that men only make more money for the same reason we live shorter lives on average. Men are more willing to work in a dangerous environment where they are away from their families [if they have them] for extended periods of time. Turns out, those jobs also pay a lot more than your average 9-5er would make.
      You see a lot more men working oil rigs, or long haul or fabrication. The Armed Forces are something like a 10-1 ratio. These are all dangerous professions and the people who are willing to do them tend to get paid a premium for exposing themselves to that danger.
      Now if you can show me that the majority of women out there would willingly risk having their children grow up without a mom [or not have children at all] just because they can make more money in a tougher profession, then I’ll stand corrected.
      I will agree that the roles need to change though. It is just as difficult for men to balance work and family and your average workplace doesn’t offer those concessions to men the same way they do to women. Consumerism and media are also doing a good job of nurturing the idiot male. 40 is the new 20 and hot chicks, cars and techno toys are the measure of cool these days. Luckily I decided to take a pay cut so I can work a job I liked more and could be home with my young son a lot more. Daddy might like his toys, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let him grow up thinking that’s all there is in life.

      • A post filled with logic and reason. All the feminists will hear is “Wah wah, wah wah wah….” But thanks for posting!

  6. If you are stuck by the side of the freeway with a flat tire, don’t expect this man, who has to compete with you at work, to stop and change your flat tire.

    • Does that mean if you drop down in the supermarket suffering from a heart attack, you shouldn’t expect “this nurse” to stop and do CPR? I think I will do okay with the flat tire…I have roadside assistance….I think you might want the nurses of the world (the great majority of which of women) offering you assistance. The funny thing is that women overwhelmingly stop and offer assistance when people are in need. Maybe it is our “can do” attitude that makes us high achievers….we also work well in team situations….

      • Excuse Full-of-yourself-bitch I hate to break the news to you but while you were admiring yourself in the mirror quite a few guys learned CPR too so fuck off.
        As far as you blowing your own horn about being a nurse ? Give me a fucking break. Nurses make a truck load of money and do lless every year and whine about it more every year so STFU ‘kay?

        • Oh! and Healthcare insider?
          Don’t forget Thursday is the day you’ve picked as your “sick” day. And just a reminder? There is a self pity party tomorrow in the staff room with an additional topic, where they will choose the winners of the “Name-The-Excuse-We’ll-Use-For-Our-Next-Strike-So-We-Don’t-Have-To-Say-Money” contest. I hope you guys don’t use “Increased Patient Care” again cuz nobody believes it anymore.

      • “Can do attitude”.
        I stopped using that “resume cliche” 15 years ago.
        May as well add “self-starting team player”….

  7. Goodness, there are a lot of threatened man-children posting in here. If a man had written on a topic such as this, would you still be having your temper tantrums?

    • “Man-children”.
      Yeah, we’ve heard that argument from feminists and their ilk for 20+ years now. Attack a man’s worth, virility, masculinity, maturity…
      Looks good on you honey.

  8. “But women, more employed and employable and often better off financially, are setting the bar high, and the men aren’t meeting it.”
    Men have no moral obligations to meet anyone’s standards other than their own. With women practically giving sex away these days, why would a man strive to become the packmule that his father was just to win the approval of a woman. Now he can have many without the effort. Men will be quite happy with their newfound status of oversexed North American Cabana boys. If they can’t get sex, then porn and video games will be an adequate substitute. I personally don’t need a fancy house, and society will ensure that I’m clothed and fed without me having to make any effort. Canada is awesome and getting better every year. Thanks ladies for taking on the burden. Two thumbs up from me.

  9. Geez no wonder the government wages war on women… they say ignorant things like this. Calling men “childish” and then childishly insulting them? That is hypocrisy.

    • Modern feminism IS hypocrisy.

  10. American women being brainwashed by the Feminist Nation/Lesbians and US media. All men are garbage unless they have a lot of money, looks, etc etc. They (American Women) don’t need men anymore because they are free, I blame Feminazi’s liberals.

    • If they don’t need men, why are they whining that we won’t join in the game and play by these “new rules”? Maybe they want their cake and eat it too? And many young men are just saying NO WAY! So women take shots at their masculinity and maturity (feminist past-time) and call them CHILDISH? LMAO! The only thing childish is what the feminist movement has become in the last 20 years.

  11. Yeah, it’s a year old. But I’m gonna rant anyways…

    “But women, more employed and employable and often better off financially, are setting the bar high, and the men aren’t meeting it.”

    Yep. North American women are setting “the bar” higher than ever before – they want the ‘big dream’ – big spec house, lavish lifestyle and all kinds of other goodies.

    So if they can do it all on their own, why do they still want men? Why are they insisting a man still make double or more what they do to be considered a suitable “match” as a spouse? Why are they not vehemently fighting against anti-male laws like the ones that strip children from good men, and leave men destitute in divorce? Courts that continue to demand spousal support for a woman who has moved on to another spouse? (next victim…)

    [Hint: Equality was never their goal…]

    Men don’t want to “play the game” because North American women, poisoned by feminism, have simply priced themselves out of a market. Their “raising the bar” is nothing but shameless materialism and consumerism, and they are never happy. In fact, they more the get, the more they spend, and the more they eat, they just get bigger, fatter, louder and more miserable. That is then (obviously) the mans fault for “not meeting her emotional needs” or “being emotionally abusive” and BAM! DIVORCE!

    Maybe if men saw an endgame like “break even” instead of coin-toss odds of losing it all and never seeing their kids again, more men would “man up” (hilarious) and consider marriage.

    Until then, young men are passing on bad (or no) sex from a manipulative never-happy materialistic wife who can divorce at a moments notice and happily settling for good video games, good porn, good friends and FREEDOM from the tyranny of a system created by what feminism has turned into: a movement of greedy pig-headed women.