What impact should the RCMP's report on the Canadian Firearms Program have on the government's desire to end the long-gun registry? - Macleans.ca
 

What impact should the RCMP’s report on the Canadian Firearms Program have on the government’s desire to end the long-gun registry?


 

 
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What impact should the RCMP’s report on the Canadian Firearms Program have on the government’s desire to end the long-gun registry?

  1. Man, you guys always find the most convoluted way of constructing these polls.

    Why not ask the more straightforward question….

    The RCMP report on their internal audit concludes the Canada Firearms Program (and the registry) is needed, effective and cost efficient. Does this make the case for preserving the registry?

    a) Yes, the report convincingly demonstrates that the registry contributes greatly to public security and safety
    b) No, there's not enough objective evidence of benefit, and/or the RCMP runs the program and thus are too biased to evaluate it,
    c) Maybe: it should be carefully considered, but it's only one voice in the debate.

    • a)Yes

    • Problem is we haven't seen the whole report yet, have we?

      • And whose fault is that? Who doesn't like what the report says and also has the ability to refuse to release it?

    • They should have been turned back like Australia and many other countries did!!!!!

  2. The bottom line the rank and file policeman is the one that counts; not the police unions or the chiefs. Has a real poll been done on the rank and file to see what they think.
    I have heard anecdotal evidence that the policeman "on the beat" has little use for the registry and do not depend on its information. That would be a smart thing given the issues in getting this thing up and running and keeping it current.
    Can anybody quote a poll on the want the policeman/woman thinks of the registry?

    • You understand the report is based on an internal audit? The audit may or may not be defensible as reasonably objective, but it's not quite the same as a chief's opinion.

      Also, one could argue that while a proper study of officers' perspectives would be very useful, such individuals can only speak from their own perspectives, and thus can hardly be taken as the final world or 'bottom line'. Broader issues of regional crime variations, aggregate databases for tracking and planning, and the utilization of registry-related findings and evidence in the courts, would possibly fall outside the expertise of many cops on the beat.

      I'm not saying we should't get their opinion – and listen to it carefully – but that public safety and security involves a heck of a lot more than front line officers, and thus relevant policies and programs ought not be strictly judged by the views of those on the front line.

      • Sean….the registry has been a boondoggle since the day it was introduced and the Conservatives have campaigned against it and have had it as part of their platform to eliminate since its introduction. Criminals do not register their guns and there is no evidence after having spent billions that it has a direct impact on reducing crime.
        Having said that we keep hearing from the police chiefs and unions touting the virtues of the registry. My only point was we have not heard from the regular policeman/woman as to how they see the value of the registry.
        I agree with you fully. There are many players in the safety and security arena and therefore it is the responsibility of the government to consider those views. However, it is the govenrment who is charged with governing the country. Until it is voted out of office they have the sole responsibilty, not the opposition parties or the left wing media in this country. What did we do before the registry ever come into existence? The police chiefs are being disingenuous. For what reason I have no idea.

        • "The police chiefs are being disingenuous."

          You have to back that up.

          In the span of two comments, you've gone from saying that front line officers represent the "bottom line", to saying it's ultimately the government's call, and that they should consider the full range of perspectives (muddled with some references to opposition v. governance, and left wing media).

          As for having campaigned against the gun registry, it's worth remembering that a minority government should be cautious in acting as though they've been handed a majority mandate.

  3. There was a frontline officer from Edmonton on the news a few days ago with his own poll of feet on the pavement cops that are overwhelmingly opposed to the registry. Like most gun owners they are not so much against registering firearms but the useless system we have now that is costly, inaccurate and political. No smart cop would depend on it anyway since only normally law abiding citizens would register their weapons anyway.

    • Constable Kuntz is the kind of cop every citizen needs – the kind we used to take for granted were standing on our street corners and patrolling our neighbourhoods.
      He is probably correct in assuming his career advancement is finished because of his stance, and I applaud his courage.
      Calgary's Chief Hanson is also to be congratulated by speaking his mind against the majority of his peers.

  4. I think any report coming from the same people who said Tasers are non-lethal and saw fit to arrest 1100 people during the G20 for no reason should be taken with about half a glass of salt.

  5. An RCMP report on an RCMP run program should be taken with a grain of salt. That aside, only the Chiefs and other higher ups heavily support the LGR. Most of the officers on the street know the registry is at best useless and at worst dangerous. Remember, most firearms used in a crime are unregistered and illegal, including the one used to kill the four officers in the Mayerthrope incident.

  6. The only polling that matters on this subject is that of the frontline officers and to them it is not effective.

  7. Do you understand the concept of police state.
    How about fascism?
    The only police chiefs in favour are big city ones – a minority

  8. How about anarchy? Is that where we want to be with guns? I think we have evolved beyond the Wild West.
    How about a compusory tracing element (registration number, chip )right at the factory as done for cars, and at the manufacturers' expense.
    When it comes to the lethal potential of a gun, who would better know and advise than those who deal mostly with the illegal use of them? Personally speaking, the total eradication of guns would do much for civilization and the erradication of violence and war. Let the collectors, sportsters , hunters , and criminals amuse themselves with something less dangerous.

    • You have little faith in the decency of your fellow man. 7 million firearms didn't kill anyone today in Canada.

      The "dangerous gun-totin' redneck wifebeater" is a fabrication of the "manufactured crisis" for sieze of power and control.

      Gun Control started, for the most part, back in the 30's because of a fear of Communists. oddly enough it was a non-issue until Socialists took power around 1968 and then began incrementally to what we have today.

      Incrementally is a "progressive" process. It's like cancer. It eats at the body until the body is destroyed.

    • And what part of police state escapes your understanding. V.I Lenin, he of the Russian Revolution, made disarming the public number 2 on his list of things to do to consolidate power in the dictatorship of the USSR, now defuct thank God! His number 1 thing to do was to eradicate, with extreme prejudice, all opposition–that is opposition political parties, journalists who spoke up against the government, and then all others who spoke up against the government. The way to do so was to disarm the public. The second thing is that the registry is costly and ineffective. Only law abiding citizens will register a gun of any sort and concealed weapons, handguns, and short weapons have been registered by law since 1936. Only those who wish to use these firearms for weapons and for criminal purposes will not register them anyway. . You, my dear girl, are one of those who say, "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up!" As for violence and war, these are caused only when the strong can prey upon the weak and that is a perfect recipe for a police state, for anarchy, and for dictatorships.

    • I'm really curious what you do for fun, something non dangerous I'm sure. Most firearms owners have no problem with having to prove competence to purchase firearms (PAL). As far as tracing elements for firearms go, it's called the serial number, they've all been recorded at point of sale since the late seventies. All legal handguns have been registered in Canada since the thirty's, does that stop drug dealers from shooting people? And by the way, governments will never give up their guns, because then somebody who kept their guns would take over.

    • I think I'm going to be sick.

    • Gigi, you must be very naive, and probably very young, but not necessarily.
      Guns are not going to go away. There are too many of them. Worldwide. If guns did go away, they would be swiftly created anew, and by the millions. Worldwide. By governments and in private factories. By criminals and those willing and able to defend themselves. Forget about banning or wishing guns out of existence, it is fruitless and dangerous.

    • The drive to work is too dangerous, not going to work today

    • So you're all in favour of forcing people to live the way you think they should – a tyrant by any other name. And you wonder
      why the citizen's of this planet need the ability to defend themselves? Go have a long look in the mirror for your answer.

    • This is the most foolish thing I have ever read. Something more dangerous then a gun Gigi is someone with an idea. Your idea based on a fictious report by a group sitting behind a desk is ill informed and very dangerous. Once someone starts talking of eradicating any one thing simply encourages total control by powers that the people originally elected. Keep your close minded, left wing opinions to yourself. Nobody wants to hear your pacifist views.

  9. The Chiefs are not elected and their position is NOT to make laws.

    If the governement were to heed only the Chief's of police? The Charter of Rights and Freedoms (love or hate it) would have been nothing like we have today and any semblance of Liberty would have died in The Constitution Act.

    What you are watching with the CACP is a clinging to and attempted grab of more power and control.

    Stay back 5 metres from the fence Comrade. You will be arrested.

  10. As a non gun owner I am puzzled as to why there is so much opposition to the registration of firearms. The annual cost now is a phony issue. Would someone who opposes give us rationale their position?

    • Your car has been deemed to be dangerous to the public safety because we say so. Because it is registered? You will either turn it in now for destruction or we will come and seize it and criminally charge you.

      You may buy any bicycle you wish to commute. Buy wisely though. Later on we may deem your bicycle a danger to public safety.

      Thank you for your compliance Comrade.

      SIGNED: Emperor William of Blair the First

      • i own many guns. my problem isnt with registering them. its with the amount of time they take to do it. as well as stating thats its a privelidge to own a gun. no its my right. i dont need any flak from the 200 employees in mirimachi when i ask why it takes one month to transfer a perfectly legal, non restricted firearm from a liscenced dealer to a liscenced owner. i follow all of the laws and they treat you like you are a burden. news flash: if you dont like your job, quit.

    • Thoughtful gun owners are not so much opposed to the registration of firearms as to the registration of long guns such as hunting rifles. Hand guns have had to be registered in Canada since 1934, yet the push back against registration has really started in 1995 following the introduction of the long gun registry.

      The registration process places a punishing burden on law-abiding citizens. The previous system of Firearm Acquisition Certificates registered gun owners rather than the guns themselves. Once you were certified to safely purchase and use a gun, you did not need to go through the inane process of registering every gun (with the exception of handguns).

    • The annual cost is NOT a phony issue!!! How about the salaries of all the government bureaucrats required to keep the registry going? Is that not a cost? Especiallly when this collection of pencil pushers and paper passers could be out doing something of value–like earning a living. How about the cost of the RCMP officers that are wrapped up also in this registry? They are not out actually policing criminals; they are busy criminalizing honest people because criminals will not register their firearms. And since you are not a gun owner and obviously do not value the sport, perhaps you should learn something about it before giving opinions. Opinions without facts are just that and no more–uninformed nonsense!

  11. There is so much opposition to the registration of sporting arms because we know (historically speaking) that the objective is the confiscation of all firearms. I think I should be able to keep my stuff if I continue to use it in a responsible manner. How many registered firearms are used in crimes? Use the money to hire more cops, not bureaucrats.

  12. Or better training of Customs officers in catching the imported weapons which are the cause of, I believe, the majority of crimes with guns.
    When a bust is made at a border crossing, the CRA and RCMP maximise their exposure in the press, intended to make us feel they are doing an exemplary job of protecting Canadians, when they are only getting a handful (if that!) of the guns coming into the country.

  13. I can recall Allen Rock standing in parliment stating that the firearms registry would 'no lead to confiscation'

    In less that 2 years he had prepared a list of firearms for confiscation with criminal charges if you didn't comply, on compensation, just threats.

    Since that date, 10's of thousands of pieces of personal property have been siezed from Canadians for no other reason than they look scary.

    • Or that the owner was unstable enough to possibly shoot his whole family and himself. After all, we wouldn't want to prevent a few wholesale slaughters now, would we?

      • Then you'll want to confiscate knives, rope, explosives, gas appliances, medical drugs and cars as well because you never know…

        • "…three-quarters of the firearm deaths in Canada in 2006 were suicides, and rifles and shotguns were used in almost three-quarters of spousal homicides…"
          http://www.albertalocalnews.com/reddeeradvocate/o

          • This only proves the point that the gun registry didn't prevent these deaths from happening. It is worthless.

          • How many of those guns were registered in our billion dollar database? (most likely less than 50%) And how did the registry help with those that were???

  14. The RCMP, and other police forces, enforce the law.

    That's it.

    They shouldn't have input into laws that are passed… If they did have input, say goodbye to protecting yourself from "unreasonable search and seizure". The only input the police should have concerning laws is as citizens and voters. They can vote, just like the rest of us. If they (don't) like what the government is doing they can voice that opinion through their vote.

    Blair and his ethically-challenged Chief buddies, and the police union brass, should shut their mouths and _not_ attempt to speak for all the police in the country.

  15. On principle alone, I do not want police making laws about anything in our country – guns, cars, video cameras, or laundry appliances…

    A move in this direction is inching us ever-closer to a state we should be concerned about.

  16. Guns are and can be GOOD! Don't need registration.
    Think about this: many violent crimes are or could be and have been PREVENTED by guns in the hands of good people. Ask those who have done so. Ask victims if they wished there had been a gun around to protect THEM.

  17. I wonder if the RCMP report was seen as so bogus, misrepresentative of the actual facts and produced simply for political support of the registry that the head of the RCMP was reassigned.

    • The Harper Government punishes people for telling the truth, not for lying to Canadians.

      • What a one-note Holly,

      • Poor Holly, did you know that the reassignment helped bag the officer in question an extra $1000.00/month for his pension days?
        Bet you didn't, he gets the extra cash in his retirement for being bilingual, hence the free money for going to school.

  18. We should let the military in on the law making too. Disarm all citizens of Canada. It seemed to work for other leaders in the past………..

    Only the police and military need guns………..Allan Rock

    Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA – ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."……Heinrich Himmler

    • Even without progressing to totalitarianism, countries such as Britain that have disarmed their law-abiding citizens cannot manage to do the same regarding their criminals who now have no worries except for the police. Violent crime has predictably risen since Britain passed its stricter gun laws.
      Since police are overextended pushing paper and harassing law abiding citizens for their politically incorrect free speech, they rarely make it to a crime in progress let alone preventing one. They arrive in time to draw a chalk outline around the citizen, even the liberal one who believed the government and its agents were capable of looking after his well being at all times.

  19. I cannot help but think, once again, urbanites are trying to enforce "rules and regulations" they think they know enough about, by what people(with political motives) throw at them – ignoring the people who live it and are affected – the rural people. The same holds true for the front line Police who are also being ignored by the police chiefs with their agenda to hold onto the registry. My question is why are they pushing for it when their own people are saying it is useless? Is it union jobs? What is in it for them? What is REALLY going on? I think there is more to this…..

  20. If there is any more doubt as to why the Liberals are fight so hard for THEIR registry.

    "The registry is the key to Canada's firearms strategy"-Alan Rock

    “Canada will be one of the first unarmed countries in the World.” – former Liberal Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy 1998

    "…disarming the Canadian public is part of the new humanitarian social agenda." – Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axeworthy at a Gun Control conference in Oslo, Norway in 1998.

    “C-68 has little to do with gun control or crime control, but it is the first step necessary to begin the social re-engineering of Canada.” – Liberal Senator Sharon Carstairs 1996

  21. The Parlement works for the People, for laws for the people, when you have special interest groups and that now includes the Police Association, it's a sad state. UNIFORM means, that a police officer is to be unbiased, and neutral, as in uniform, I can see that's not the case here. They (the left) associate owning a gun as a bad thing, or you're a bad person, yea, bad guys own guns, but 100/1 good guys own guns, or 10000/1, I was a Mountie for 28 years, and Citezens with Firearms Licesnes and guns were never a problem, they were the most patriotic law abiding citizens you have. They stop to help you in need, the other's phone it in and drive away. If the left wants to change society, they need to control it, they can't, unless they control the people. In England and most of Europe, the Lords took horbilly from the common man, until guns came along, then the opression stopped. We're going the wrong way folks.

    There's more guns in Newfoundland/capita than anyplace in the world, yet they have one of the lowest homicide rates/100,000 people anywhere, it's not the guns, the the crap that comes in by video game, drug dealer, T.V., movies, internet, and other trash that's a threat to our society. If you disarm the citizen, then the Citizen should fear the Government. I guess Hugo Cavez is going to get his way, who can say now now!!!!!!!!!!!, yet he got elected, and took power, stopped elections, and seized property, etc. Don't think for a minute that Absolute power doesn't corrupt, it always does, those that are on the left, ususlly don't answer to a higher power, or God, they think they are such. Watch Glen Beck, to find out about founding fathers of a free nation!

    • "I was a Mountie for 28 years, and Citezens with Firearms Licesnes and guns were never a problem, they were the most patriotic law abiding citizens you have. They stop to help you in need, the other's phone it in and drive away. ""

      Thank you very much for writing that Sir. I like to think I am man enough to say it gave me goose bumps and almost a tear to my eay.

  22. The computer software company that boondoggled the billion dollar registry together has given lots of cash to the Chiefs of police et al, so of course the cops will say what they're told to say by this corrupt company that is connected to powerful corrupt Liberals. The Liberals could win the next election, so it's best to get in on the corruption on the ground floor.

  23. The police could have good advice for the politicians who in turn should be getting advice from other concerns. I agree that we do not need anything like a police state.

  24. The police should have no say in law making. That is the path to a police state, one this country has been close to going down for years. Lets not give it any more momentum, indeed it’s time to curb such influence in politics.

  25. Good grief Macleans, have you never read a history book? Allowing the fox to guard the henhouse has been tried in the past. You may want to ask the Jew's how that went.
    Does the RCMP have a say in ELECTED Government policy???? Give your head a shake and go to the back of the line.

  26. If the Police make all of the laws, then that is just a police state is it not?

    While I belive the police should have a say in what laws are needed, I donot belive they should be the sole voice heard from when making new laws.

    I also belive that we live in a democracy and this is why there should be a seperation from church and state as well as between state and law enforcement.

    If the police get to make the rules then we wouldn't have any freedoms of any kind, for our own good of course……..

  27. I spent almost 30 yrs. in the RCMP, many of those as a firearms instructor. The vast majority of frontline officers I have dealt with feel the long arm registry serves no purpose. The money spent is not justifyed to the tax payer. Chiefs of police and executive rank persons will only say and do that which is politically correct and career wise, of this you can be damn sure.

  28. Since when did murderers and perverts get to state the agenda??
    A little extreme, maybe, but these people are far too political and far to rogue-ish. Their focus should be on putting their own house in order or they should be disbanded. They are losing the confidence of more and more people everyday.

  29. My tax dollars paid for that report. I want to see it, period.

  30. My, my, look at all the flying monkeys. Who sent them all over here? Do they all have the same IP?

    • Gun nuts are definitely out tonight. The thought of any of them owning a weapon – scary thought.

      • Hey… just because some of you lefties can't be trusted with a plastic spoon doesn't mean that everyone else should be 'banned' from owning them too.

        And by the way… a weapon is something designed for one purpose: assault. The posters here are referring to FIREARMS, not weapons. Your computer keyboard could become a weapon under the criminal code if used in such manner as to harm another person. A gun designated for hunting or target practice is NOT a weapon, but merely a tool…

        A tool that most of you leftist tools fear more than anything in the world, just because you've been brainwashed by decades of social engineering and mental conditioning.

        Now say 'beeeeh' like a good sheep…

    • What are you talking about??

      Really, are people like the above "Holly Stick" the reason for all this grief.. Unbelievable.. And I thought we were trying to have a intelligent conversation.

  31. If Blair added the energy wasted criminalizing law abiding citizens to pursuing gun toting criminals and their arms suppliers, everyone except criminals would be better off. Blair likes fussing around harassing law abiding citizens instead of those committing gun crimes because then he can't be accused of racism. That bogus accusation crops up every time someone focuses on gun crime in urban areas because perpetrators and even victims are disproportionately black. Blair is all PC all the time to match his political masters and that ostrich head in the sand attitude is costing lives.

  32. "The police could have good advice for the politicians who in turn should be getting advice from other concerns."
    Which police? The chiefs who are basically government bureaucrats and don't want to see a single government program defunded, especially a liberal one? Or the rank and file who when polled through their magazine voted over 90% to rescind the boondoggle? Police are all taught to approach every situation as though there's a potential for a gun because paper blizzards are rife with error and you can't rely on them for protection. The two billion dollar boondoggle has not been shown to save a single life since its inception, despite all the lib bloviating, substituting pure emotion for cold hard facts. That 2B COULD have saved lives, many lives if directed to psychiatric or other medical resources. We can no longer afford to indulge stupid emotion-based spending, a billion here, a billion there.

  33. Red Deer Alberta shows signs of intelligence:

    "…The long-gun registry, once an expensive boondoggle, has evolved into a cost-effective, efficient and important tool for law enforcement and health-care professionals…"
    http://www.albertalocalnews.com/reddeeradvocate/o

    • Yes… and in other news, the car manufacturer "Yugo" has recently been credited to have historically produced outstanding quality & luxury vehicles, on par with the very best Mercedes-Benz on the market at the time.

      Customers just have never noticed it and never appreciated the car maker's product to its' full potential, thus forcing them to declare unjustified bankruptcy. Latest statistical reports show how wrong the World was and how wonderful those automotive marvels really were. In short, the loss of the Yugo is an irreparable loss to humanity. Let's not repeat that horrible mistake by getting rid of the long gun registry! (sarcasm)

      (If that's the type of proof & common sense you're referring to, then I feel sorry for you. Could you please do the whole country a huge favor and refrain from voting from now on? Thanks!)

  34. What was the last figure on what if costs to run the registry every year? 4.1 million? I thought I read somewhere its actually 106 million annually.

    There's 200 employees at the Canadian Firearms Centre. 4,100,000 200 = 20500. So if ALL the money was used just to pay the employees at the Miramichi centre, they'd only be making $20,500 per year gross? Hmmmm, that doesn't make much sense….

    • 4,100,000 divided by 200 = 20500. (apparently it didn't like my keyboards interpretation of the divide symbol in my first post)

  35. The content of this report should be taken for what it's worth- nothing. The RCMP conducted the report on themselves- of course its going to be glowing when many dollars worth of department funding are at stake… Funny the media doesn't say much about that aspect of the report. Suppose it doesn't serve their agenda.

    • Simple solution – release it and we can all examine it. If it's just a self-serving piece of crap your side shoulkd be able to discredit it – no?

  36. The police should have NO say in making laws.
    They are trying to do so in a number of areas, all to buff their power over us, the people.

    The more power the police have over making laws the less power our parliament has, the lesss power we the people have.

    THINK people think…..

    go read 1984 or something.

  37. The more information we have on the one-toothed knuckledraggers that own guns , the better . Guns are murder weapons and don't belong in civilized society .

  38. Why are there comments on the police making the laws. They aren't. The story is saying that the registry is working within acceptable, to them, standards. As for the report. It's a report based on accounting precepts. They have to follow rules of reporting. Otherwise, guess what, everything you're reading and relying on might as well be accused of fakery, including all the financial statements including people reading yours.

  39. The gun registry only affects law abiding citizens, you will not find a criminal with a gun that has registered it for his own use. The RCMP should be smart enough to know that ! It is not guns that kill people. People kill people !! Look at the reasons why. Drugs, alcohol, uncontrolled anger, mental illness, the list goes on. The billions of dollars that has gone into this registry for rabbit,deer and duck hunters would have been better used to educate the general public as to the danger of misusing firearms, awareness of people around you who may be unstable, (we have a responsibility to safeguard ourselves and remember Marc Lepine) , and to beef up police surveillance and give them criminal investigative tools in order to prevent street and gang murders. Also, why not increase penalties for crimes committed with any gun, registered or not and deport immediately, any landed immigrant that commits any crime with a gun, ( without exception).
    Get rid of the registry !!

  40. I recall that the CAPC worked hard to oppose significant elements within the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Rights that some of the strongest advocates against C-391 seem to take FAR too much for granted.

    I'll take anything rights related that the CAPC works hard at with a glass of salt.

  41. Canadians are starting to forget what true freedom is, how it can sometimes be taken away by tyrants and what people have to do to restore it. Uncontrolled arms in the hands of the people has always been a reminder to the political class to stay honest and to work for the people.

    Free people must have the means to protect their freedom, as a nation, should another Hitler, Stalin, Pol-Pat, Mussolini, etc. come to power.

    • My, that sounds awfully NRA-ish.

  42. Parliament makes laws, RCMP enforce laws. Police should not and are not legally permitted to engage in politics nor make laws.

    Seriously, when the RCMP make political opinions and policy its illegal. I think it was the Royal Canadian Mounted Poilce Act of 1988. The NFA recently mentioned this in their latest Firearms Journal.