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Howard’s Way: We get emails


 

From @conservative.ca addresses:

Subject: Dion-Suzuki copying

http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2006/09/stephane_dions_.html


 

Howard’s Way: We get emails

  1. Dion already said he consulted with many of the greatest minds in economics on his plan as well as with world leaders on greening our environments.

    I’m glad to see Suzuki’s input on the Green Shift. And as for Cons emails….the most glaring difference between this and Harper’s lifting of the Australian speech is that Dion’s was based on consulting to determine what is best for Canada. But Harper’s was based on completely ignoring the best interests of Canada and pushing right-wing vast Bush agenda.

  2. Come on, that was weeks ago. Why dredge up the past?

  3. You people are not being helpful.

  4. I can only imagine the amount of strain the little shop of tories has been putting on google this am.

  5. Good point. Let’s compare by substituting Dion/Harper into the following rhetorical question:
    Has Stephan Dion/(Stephen Harper) subsequently deny the merits of the context of the report/speech)?
    Hey, plagiarism is the highest form of flattery, but of course that assumes you endorse the arguments you are copying.
    Where does Stephen Harper stand on the content of the Howard speech?

  6. Heh. Thanks for the delicious serving of irony Mr. Wells.

    Now can we please drop the Google-scouring of history for gaffes nobody cares about?

  7. Where are all the conbots insisting that this is “ancient history?”

  8. Paul, that was funny :) How would you like us to help?

  9. Both documents cite the OMA, and gloss the data with similar wording. Given that the publications were only one week apart, the OMA document is the appropriate source to cite.

    As I’ve said elsewhere, plagiarism will not excite the electorate. However, answering for one’s friends and associates is another matter. I can’t see much of a downside to being associated with Suzuki, particularly on the topic of the environment. But taking directions from Bush regarding war…

  10. Fine line between what constitutes “plagiarism” and what constitutes “paraphrasing”…

    Acknowledgement of sources is key, of course. I suppose as long as Harper acknowledges the Aussie speechwriter that he apparently still employs, or in the very least thanks Rudd and Howard for their “inspiration”, then we are all happy!

    Austin

  11. Ti-Guy,

    My comment above implies it. As a proud member of your Con-bot brigade I’ll say it.

    It’s ancient history. It doesn’t matter. It’s not relevant to anything that anyone cares about today. I’m speaking of both Dion’s “plagiarism” and Harper’s.

  12. Didn’t this already make the news during the Liberal leadership race?

  13. Robert, yes it did. They answered to it already a long time ago. And just yesterday or the day before, Suzuki and Greenpeace have spoken in favour of the Green Shift.

    As opposed to Harper refusing to address his speech copying because it proves he’s been pushing the Bush agenda all along.

  14. My comment above implies it. As a proud member of your Con-bot brigade I’ll say it.

    So what? Not everything is a matter of two sides or to be dismissed as “irony.” There’s history of no real importance and then there’s the history that really does matter.

    What the conbot brigade tries so very hard to do is to make sure no one is ever allowed to focus on that kind of nuance.

    Where y’all learn to do that is a mystery to me.

  15. All I can say to the Liberal supporters is that this is so much inside baseball. It doesnt resonate.

    Don’t blame you for trying, Cons arent’t taking the bait, move on to the next one

    Remeber Iggy for 2 days, then rae for 2 days, then iggy…so Bob gets one more day and then hands the baton over.

    Where’s Waldo by the way?

  16. The link doesn’t work.

  17. Dion is repeating some things Suzuki said? I wish Layton was still listening to anything Suzuki said. If he was, I might have been prepared to stay with the NDP.

    I have no qualms in taking some advice from Suzuki on environmental matters. If this is meant to scare people away from the Green Shift, I don’t think it will work.

  18. Wow, the irony is delicious. As I stated before, with issues far more pressing can we cut the ‘gotcha’ politics and move on?

    Dion plagiarized his Green Shift without proper attribution and published it as his own. Far as I know speeches aren’t held to the same standard. Both people at the time felt that it was the correct thing to say/do and the best course for Canada.

    I don’t care about either issue and think they’re both a waste of time and print space.

  19. Oops. If I’m gonna carry war rooms’ water, you’d think I could do it better. Link will be fixed in a minute.

  20. All I can say to the Liberal supporters is that this is so much inside baseball. It doesnt resonate.

    How do you know that? Have you conducted a population survey this morning?

    Nice hand waving. Keep trying, conbots.

  21. Frankly, normally I would not care, but since the CBC has made it front-page news that the Liberals have accussed Harper of plagiarizing a speech from 2003, it will be interesting to see whether the CBC pays any attention to the same thing from Dion.

    In both cases,
    -there is a fine line between plagiarism and paraphrasing, and neither case strikes me as being plagiarism
    -it is perfectly fine if there is permission from the source

    I suppose the other thing I find most interesting is that it is enabling us to distinguish who on this blog is partisan and who is hyper-partisan.

  22. Right, let’s “move on” from the fact that Harper desperately wanted to drag us into what has become the biggest military and political debacle of the 21st century. Let’s “move on” from the fact that he and Stockwell Day wrote a letter to the Wall Street Journal apologising for our non-involvement. Let’s just forget all that, because they thought it was the right thing to do!

    Well, it wasn’t the right thing to do! It would have been monumentally stupid! Stephen Harper can thank his lucky stars that his pro-Bush rhetoric was ignored, because if it had been put into effect his political career would have gone down in flames as of 2005 at the latest. That WSJ letter deserves to be remembered at every step of his current and future career.

  23. The big guns are coming out, eh?

  24. Sorry lib-bots but most Canadians think that David Suzuki is a hack who has sucked on government teat long enough.

  25. Most Canadians? I guess I’ll just take your word for it.

    Iraq plagiarism
    or
    Susuki plagiarism.

    Tough call which one is more offending/damaging.

  26. Wow. And now we see why it was Bob Rae who issued this release instead of Michael Ignatieff

    How many more plagerizers can we find in the next 30 minutes? Let’s make a game of it!

  27. That’s 2 liberal plagerisms on the Environment file.

    There are your so called defenders of the environment; apparently the entire Liberal environmental policy has been lifted from Suzuki, CD Howe, and Elizabeth May (if you include the Green Shift, which she seems to like taking credit for)

  28. Sorry lib-bots but most Canadians think that David Suzuki is a hack who has sucked on government teat long enough.

    Did you conduct a population survey this morning that suggests this is what “most Canadians” think?

  29. John G, you hand-waving is exceptional. Are you a hand model?

  30. C’mon people, you can’t honestly equate plagiarism in a written document about environmental policy to that in a speech to the House arguing in favour of going to war! (I can’t believe I have to write this!)

    What does it say about “being a leader” that you can’t come up with an argument of your own to send people to war and death?

    War / invasion / whatever you want to call it (sending people to death, perhaps?) has to be among the most serious decisions a politician has to make. If you can’t come up with a good reason of your own to decide this, you don’t belong in government, even in the House.

    And even if one were to swallow the spin, the argument “I wasn’t the first to do it” isn’t one to be proud of, or one that works, even for speeding tickets.

  31. john g, the point is not the plagiarism per se (as far as I’m concerned, plagiarism schmlagiarism) but about whether the speaker/writer has anything of their own to say about important political questions.

    Dion cribbing from Suzuki and Ignatieff cribbing from the C.D.Howe Int. study were both describing the mechanisms of various policies, not justifying the policies themselves. Also, the sources were independent policy studies: Dion and Ignatieff were not claiming that they had personally thought through the mechanisms of environmental policy, they were just describing how such-and-such a policy was supposed to work. By contrast, Stephen Harper was ripping off a foreign leader on a purely political topic – whether to invade Iraq or not, and what the reasons were for doing so. In other words he was abdicating his principal responsibility as a leader, namely to express his position.

  32. Ti-Guy, I’d say your hand is flapping around in the wind a bit as well (or perhaps it’s busy covering your eyes from the stuff you would care not to see).

    The score is 2 plagarisms for the Liberals and 1 for the Conservatives. How many more can we find? Let’s forget the economy and the environment and the rest of the issues anybody cares about and count how many more plagarisms we can find before October 14. Fewest plagarisms takes the keys to 24 Sussex.

  33. Yeah, well, john g, that’s about how serious your faction is about governing.

  34. So yesterday was Market Meltdown Monday and this is what the Liberals think will resonate with people today. Very pathetic if the best the LPC War Room can come up with is Bob Rae flogging this like it is an important story today.

    It’s as useless as farting into a hurricane.

    Shows more about the desperation in the Liberal Party and the straws that will be grasped at by the Liberals in the frantic attempts to avoid electoral destruction.

  35. You know you’ve done a pretty good job at governing, when…..

    they’ve gotta go back five years when you were in opposition,

    to play their “gotcha” politics.

  36. And add this to the files of media self-destruction.

    The TSX dropped several hundred points in one day and the North American market is on the verge of crumbling,

    and the press dedicates stories to……

    the literary license of a five year old speech???

    Today’s liberal media: so blinded by their world view and gotcha politics, they’ve convinced themselves that the average person wants to know desperately about five year old speeches amidst an economic meltdown.

  37. “Right, let’s “move on” from the fact that Harper desperately wanted to drag us into what has become the biggest military and political debacle of the 21st century. ”

    Yes, the 7 year old 21st century. Powerful rhetoric.

  38. But Harper said Canada’s economy is sound.

  39. “What does it say about “being a leader” that you can’t come up with an argument of your own to send people to war and death?”

    It says we have allies and common interests with other countries.

    What does it say about folks who think that Australia and Canada are suddenly alien places with no common heritage and shared interests?

  40. So which is worse:

    1) Plagiering the arguments for the war made by the war’s proponents (Harper)

    2) Standing shoulder to shoulder with the neoconservatives making the intellectual case for the Iraq war and for torture. (Ignatieff).

    3) Sending Canadian troops to Afghanistan as an excuse to avoid sending them to Iraq (Chretien, Dion was at the Cabinet table).
    [after having gutted the military for a decade]

    4) Sending Canadian troops to Kanadahar because one dithered with the decision so long that the Europeans got all the “safe” places first. (Martin, Dion was at the Cabinet table). [after having gutted the military for a decade].

    The unimaginative foreign policy views of Harper and Dion are major weaknesses for both of them.

  41. “But Harper said Canada’s economy is sound.”

    I’ve heard John Howard call the Australian economy sound during those days!! I think the Indian government is, on balance, happy with the economic fundamentals of that country too!! Ireland’s economy was described, recently, by its PM as “sound”.

    Pathetic plagiarism.

  42. Ti-Guy,

    Same survey you base your pearls of wisdom on.

    Hey I could be wrong, this could be “THE action movie of the summer”. Just doesnt strike me as a something that people outside blog chamber really would care about…especially when markets are boiling, peoples investments are going up and down….choice between a speech 5 years ago and an “economic crisis” (according to many). Simple reason tells you which issue matters more.

    Ti-Guy, here’s some advice, if they can find more speeches like this one, especially one where the Harper has already made a statement that this is his, he wrote it etc then you might be able to create an issue that sticks.

    Finding one incident, whose real intent is to raise the issue of the Iraq war,doesnt really cut it. Its an inflammatory charge, that matters to few…if it becomes the burning issue you fervently believe it is I will say I was wrong and Ti-Guy was right.

    Lets check back at the end of the week and see if it is still an issue.

  43. Is there any doubt that if the Harper and the media were on a sinking ship that was going down after hitting an ice berg,

    the media’s would be frantically trying to file as their lead story:

    “Titanic cruise lines reports, Harper a bad tipper”

    “Bell hop claimed to be short changed”

  44. chuckercanuck:

    “the biggest military and political debacle of the 21st century.”

    Yes, the 7 year old 21st century. Powerful rhetoric.

    Oh, I see, you’re expecting dozens of far greater schmozzles to unfold in the next sixty years. Well, I can see why Harper’s your man.

  45. “Oh, I see, you’re expecting dozens of far greater schmozzles to unfold in the next sixty years. Well, I can see why Harper’s your man.”

    We can’t pretend history didn’t happen.

  46. “We can’t pretend history didn’t happen.”

    But can we agree that the future hasn’t happened yet?

  47. Janke hits the nail on the head.

    http://stevejanke.com/archives/274526.php

    And more proof why it is better not to buy any of the MSM rags.

    Hey Wells when are we going to get a blog post on how Harper is a bad father.

  48. “But can we agree that the future hasn’t happened yet?”

    Agree, Jack. I sure do hope that the Liberals pledge to end all wars, everywhere, over the next century.

  49. chuckercanuck, I’m sure if you ask nicely enough they’ll make an exception for wars of choice like Iraq.

  50. Here’s a thought.

    If this truly matters I’d like to see people post that they are *changing* their vote from Tory to something else. (Be honest)

    So far all I see are Liberal/NDP partisans hacking away at how terrible a person Harper is (like they always do) and Tory partisans fervently defending Harper (like they always do). Neither group is going to change their votes.

    If this issue has legs, it’ll cause people to change their vote. Otherwise, its just a tempest in a teapot.

  51. “Oh, I see, you’re expecting dozens of far greater schmozzles to unfold in the next sixty years. Well, I can see why Harper’s your man.”

    Or Ignatieff. Or maybe Dion will carry through his “intervention” into Pakistan if elected?

  52. Dion doesn’t have to, sbt. President Bush has been running armed incursions into Pakistan regularly since May. It was in all the papers. Did you miss it?

  53. Good point, southernontarioan, though I’m not partisan myself. I’m just sitting comfortably up here on Mt. Ida; sometimes I do fly down in the shape of a vulture.

    Objectively, though, I think the issue has the potential to be a campaign-changer if Harper doesn’t steadfastly ignore it. And even then it has the potential to colour the upcoming debate – to which the Liberal announcement certainly owes its timing.

    Some horny old hand in the Liberal backroom deserves an extra ration of grog for a political tack so deftly executed. Finest traditions of the service, etc.

    Only the polls can tell if this has legs, of course, and even then they can’t really tell.

  54. “Dion doesn’t have to, sbt. President Bush has been running armed incursions into Pakistan regularly since May. It was in all the papers. Did you miss it?”

    Apparently. You learn something new every day around here. Next thing you know we’ll find a way to somehow tie Layton to Bush.

  55. “Dion doesn’t have to, sbt. President Bush has been running armed incursions into Pakistan regularly since May. It was in all the papers. Did you miss it?”

    October surprise?

  56. The score is 2 plagarisms for the Liberals and 1 for the Conservatives.

    This isn’t a hockey game, you know. Or at least, it isn’t to me. And probably to the majority of the electorate.

    But keep waving those hands. They are quite graceful.

  57. Comments at the CTV article are running about 80-20 criticizing the Liberals and the media for their desperation in making this a story. And CTV moderates their comments heavily & censors ones that are particularly critical of them.

    260 comments at the G&M story have mysteriously disappeared.

  58. “This isn’t a hockey game, you know.”

    No, its Jenga and I think our friends in Grit-land have just pulled their last log.

  59. john g, what’s your point? I gotta ask because anyone who will take the time to count pros vs cons argument in a media commentary section must be pretty desperate.

  60. boudica I think you know very well what my point is.

  61. Legs or not, this is a reminder of the biggest blunder of Harper’s political career. Fortunately, he was only the opposition leader at the time.
    And what does it have to do with today? Well, having preached a Bushian path into Iraq then, what is Harper’s intention for the future?
    And how intrinsically entwined are a) America’s expensive (in blood, morality and money) war in Iraq, and b) America’s wobbly financial status?
    Connect the dots, people.

  62. “boudica I think you know very well what my point is.”

    Is that short for “I don’t have one?”

  63. unissonsnosvoix.ca

    Brilliant.

  64. No…that would be longer.

  65. I can hardly wait until the Chosen One takes over down south. He wants to hit Pakistan with regular brigades, divisions, marines infantry etc, instead of a few drones and special forces operations. That’ll quiet things down.

  66. Well at least this election the liberals have found a speech from when Harper was in parliment to throw out just before the debate.

    In the 2006 election they tried the same thing just before the debates.

    Methinks this will turn out to have just as much impact.

    The libs should have waited till after the debates.

  67. I think the Globe and the CBC should be embarrassed that they made this a front-page story.

    Can we please get back to a discussion of issues facing the federal government in 2008?

  68. i also suspect harper’s cribbing another conservative government’s talking points isn’t going to make much of a difference. He’s been duplicitious since the first week of office, if his record doesn’t bother a person already this won’t change their mind.

  69. I’m with you Two Cents. All the stuff going on in Canada right now that affects how my future will unfold, and we have to suddenly jump at attention because Bob Rae has a press conference and wants to re-hash the Iraq War decision.

    Cons want to frame this about Harper the Leader, Libs want to frame this as “Harper the Evil Emporer” and Layton wants to frame this as “How long can you tolerate my mustache!”.

    Ordinary canadians who have to pay bills and find jobs are being totally screwed in this election and the media is allowing it to happen. Way to go guys!

  70. Mike T.: Probably true.. but I keep trying. You never know when a piece of evidence might slip past the ideologic wall.

  71. Paul, I think everyone covering this story should see Andrew Coynes article in the paper version of the magazine that had the three covers on it (Harper, Layton, Dion).

    It’s not that the story shouldn’t be noted, but its grand importance is where exactly? Or alternately, argue why Coyne’s argument doesn’t apply here.

  72. That’s the best they can do? At worst, the Clean Air Plan was repetition of acknowledged facts using completely different wording.

    Harper stole a speech and delivered parts of it as both a speech of his own and several op-eds.

    (Or Harper and Howard were handed the same speech by the Office of Special Plans. Either way.)

    “Ancient history” and weak equivalence. My God, this stinks of desperation. It’s like the Republicans and the whole congressional page thing all over again.

  73. When the media in general refuses to discuss the ‘complex’ and ‘dry’ issues that really do matter since they wont grab eyes like stealing speeches will…well then I’ll settle for the speech story if it will derail a CPC majority.

    Why? Because I’ve done my own research on their policies and plans – or lack there of – and they don’t sit well with a progressive who cares about the downtrodden and the direction of our country such as myself.

    Not to mention Harper’s history and past positions as well as their performance on such things like the environment (Bali), Chalk River (pure party politics ahead of Canada), polling fiasco’s, immigration law tied to budgets, running from the press, attack politics in place of substance and debate, his inept underlings who are apparently our government etc etc etc

    So to all the CPC boosters here complaining about this meaningless tripe, be careful what you wish for.

  74. Every news agency in the world is currently publishing this story. AP, UPI, AFP, TPA, UK press, papers in France, the Netherlands, and Bloomberg.

    If Teneycke can say it isn’t relevant in the face of this global press attention, he should go join Bush’s press team.

  75. Dear Stephen Harper,

    Please, can you club a baby seal to death or something? People are apparently going to say how you’re the Great Satan because you tied your shoelaces up wrong or something, so can you at least do something to deserve it and save me this splitting pain in my temples?

    Sincerely,

    Lord Bob

  76. T A.Political
    As someone who has a family member with terminal cancer I can never agree that Chalk River was “putting politics before Canada”. The Parliament of Canada voted almost unanimously to overrule a ruling by the President of teh Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission that would have put at risk the supply of crucial medical isotopes. It is people like you who are so obssessed with gotcha politics that are not putting Canadians first.

  77. comment by Demosthenes on Tuesday, September 30, 2008 at 3:54 pm:

    “Ancient history” and weak equivalence. My God, this stinks of desperation. It’s like the Republicans and the whole congressional page thing all over again.

    ========

    Yes, since such incidents certainly don’t speak towards the overall values, morals and ethics of a party or those that operate within that party (and cover up for).

  78. Yep. The Conservatives do NOT want a real policy debate. Why do you think they don’t even have a platform? Even Republicans usually have platforms.

    (How happy is John McCain? Somebody actually looks like a bigger ass today!)

  79. Lord Bob- Plagiarism is theft. Theft is wrong. Since Tories are all about law and order I thought Harper supporters would have an issue with his doing something so clearly dishonest. Or do basic rules of conduct (the type that every elementary and highschool in the country have) only apply to others? I don’t think Harper is a “Great Satan.” He isn’t nearly impressive or scary enough for that. He is, however, dishonest and while I don’t fear him like the devil I think he is worthy of at least a bit of criticism for that. At a bare minimum he might try taking responsability for something for once in his life instead of blaming on yet another of his hapless underlings.

  80. Too bad for the Libs that all of these Harper attacks occur in a multi-party election. If this was a two-party race, such as in the U.S., then voters swayed by all this anti-Harper stuff, would only have the LPC as a place to register their displeasure.

    So of course, the NDP is making hay out of this by reminding voters about Ignatieff’s support of the war. There are quotes from Paul Martin, David Pratt and Scott Brison out there too. On the plus side for the Libs, this story probably pumps up their base of supporters.

  81. Oh no. The poor Libs. They’re clearly the ones hurting here.

  82. Saw you on TV Paul, good hit, but really, a green sweater? Should we see this as a tacit endorsement of Elizabeth May?

  83. You’re way off base, Paul Wells. According to Le Devoir’s quick calculation, from the 178-line speech delivered by Harper, at least 79 were absolutely identical and 10 were paraphrases, adding to 50 percent of the content of the speech being plagiarism.

    To have found a paragraph in the Green Shift that states in similar terms facts that are well known does not add up to 50 percent of the Green Shift plagiarism.

    Sad that a journalist I respect links its readers to the Western Standard, a publication that calls Dion – Mme Dion.

  84. I assume Wells is linking to this Western Standard article to poke fun at the Conservatives. You can’t take them seriously.

  85. I’m sure you’re right Catherine.

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