Israel & flotillas: What goes around, comes around? - Macleans.ca
 

Israel & flotillas: What goes around, comes around?


 

Here is a very interesting bit of history from STRATFOR. Hat tip to TPM.

Meanwhile, the Obama administration appears to still be  debating what position to take on the raid, other than to express regret for the loss of life and to call for an Israeli investigation. Here is an exchange from the briefing by US State Department spokesman P.J. Crowley yesterday:

QUESTION: And could you just clarify a point of international law for me? Because the Israeli Government says that it’s well within their rights to do what they did yesterday. They cite the Paragraph 62-A of the San Remo Manual, whereas the Turkish foreign minister this morning was quite emphatic that this took place in international waters and Israel had no right to board these ships. What is the opinion of the United States Government on this —
MR. CROWLEY: Well, not being an international lawyer, I’m not going to that from the podium. Clearly, that will be something that will be investigated, and I’m sure debated, as we go forward.

The Obama administration needed this incident about as much as it needed another undersea oil spill. Both Israel and Turkey are  important US allies. The silver lining: maybe it will distract from any potential embarrassment emanating from the Rod Blagojevich trial which opens tomorrow.


 
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Israel & flotillas: What goes around, comes around?

  1. Firsties!!!

  2. Israel has really screwed the pooch this time.

  3. "What goes around, comes around?"

    Probably the most disgusting headline and post I've read in the year 2010 so far. Awful, just awful.

  4. For me, it boils down pretty simply. International waters.

    Had Israel done the exact same thing within their own waters, which the ports of Gaza are in, then I wouldn't have a problem with that. They would have simply been exercising their sovereign control. By taking it outside that area though, they've committed an act of piracy.

    So the answer wasn't simply "let the flotilla through" the answer was "respect that you do not control international waters"

    • If a country is sending arms to another country, to give weapons and supplies to your enemies, exactly where would you intercept that ship, if not in International waters?

      Didn't President Kennedy have a blockade of Cuba? Wasn't that in International waters? Why is it that Israel is supposed to sit back and watch as countries it knows are hostile to it, send ships that easily could be carrying weapons and in the past have been caught carrying weapons, to a goverment who has made it clear it wants to destroy Israel.

      What other country would sit back and watch as this happened to it? So why does the world think Israel should do it!

      These "peace activist" are now sending another ship. Where is the condemnation of that? It does not seem Israel is creating this situation, because their stand on the blockade has not changed. It is the so called "peace activist" who are causing this

      • There is NO evidence (in fact MUCH evidence to the contrary from retired US diplomats who were on board, from Nato inspections prior) that there were weapons. There WERE materials for reconstruction of the damages by the most recent INVASION by Israel. There WERE electric wheel chairs…….. I suppose they could've been lobbed into Israel with about as much damage as Hamas 'missiles'.
        These are the materials that Israel is blockading. Nothing to do with its security. In FACT this enforced poverty, illness, and malnutrition plays RIGHT into the hands of Islamic extremists in the region in general and Hamas in particular.
        Israel, led by it's extreme faction, continues to pile bonehead move on top of bonehead move:
        Expelling Palestinians from their homes in East Jerusalem to make way for "Jewish-only" condos.
        Expelling Palestinians from their lands in occupied west bank to build walls and (Israeli-only) roads.
        and it goes on and on.

    • I do not think the port in Gaza is considered Isreals waters. Not since Israel turned Gaza over. If Gaza were under their control then they would still be occupying Gaza, which they are not!

      • Please tell me what the country that the Gaza strip is in is called.

        • Thwim asked:
          "Please tell me what the country that the Gaza strip is in is called. "

          Actually, Thwim, until they stupidly tried to kill every Jew in Israel, GAZA….belonged to Egypt. After losing the war, the Egyptions basically decided they didn't want to bother taking back the Egyptions who lived there. Then, the Egyptions who lived there…decided to call themselves Palestinians.

          For the record….those in the "West Bank"….are Jordanians.

          hope that clears things up for you.

          • You're ruining his bubble.

  5. A torpedo would have been the best option. This is Jenin on the high seas! Ignore the outrage Israel, let the little Hitlers have their say!

    • How ironic you would use the term ''little Hitlers''…

      Watch ''Machssomim'', a documentary on Israeli checkpoints… Watch how the ''Border Police'' refer to children as animals, Palestinians as unhuman. Watch how they degrade teenage girls and force the ill and the meek to stand out in the pouring rain, to the amusement of the uniformed… The term ''little Hitlers'' is much more apropos.

      I may agree with the right of existence for Israel but I will never agree with the degradation of humanity. I will never agree with someone who refers to little children as subhuman, as animals.

      • boo hoo

      • I have no interest in perusing your propaganda! I stand by my original description of you and your lot! Suck it up Adolph!

    • Bang on Gary!
      Sick of these islamo fundies and their lab dogs destroying everything good in the world.

      • really!….because I am getting tired of Christian fundies destroying everything good in the world

        • Not that I'm a Christian, or even religious for that matter, but I don't see them strapping bombs to themselves and redecorating the marketplace, to name just one type of attack.
          Can you please provide us a link that shows Christian attrocities?
          Thanx!

          • Cruzades, inquisition, Colonization of the Americas, Child abuse… just to name a few.

            Any other question?

          • rarsa……those things happened several hundred years ago……….Time to get with the program.

            Of course, the ideology of Islam is stuck in the past as well, so I guess your comments still make sense to you.

    • How can you compare this to Jenin, a massacre that was proven to not have happened!

  6. "Probably the most disgusting headline and post I've read in the year 2010 so far. Awful, just awful."

    Hardly. Don't forget Israel wasn't exactly a big fan of the law of blockades when it started the Six Day War, partly on the pretext that closing Egypt's territorial waters in the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping under terms of blockade was an act of war.

    Now, apparently, blockades are cool after all.

    • You're right, blockades ARE an act of war. Israel is at war for its survival.

      • can u see the difference between terms of "blockade" and "embargo"?

  7. I wonder if Harper didn't come out and support Israel's high-seas murders as a "measured response" because he knew it would weaken his chances of getting a seat on the UN Security Council?

    (And as a Canadian of majoritarian views on most international issues, I personally don't want Canada on the UN Security Council as long as Harper is PM. It will be just too embarrassing to give Harper such a high-profile perch from which he will embarrass Canadians with his extreme, divisive and highly-unrepresentative views.

    • I'll agree with that. This is not a good time for us to get that seat.

    • Yes, because it's much prefered to give those council seats to those models of democracy like, say, Iran and Syria! What a nimrod!

      • Neither country, of course, is an alternative. I gather Germany is interested in the seat, and I would prefer them over giving Harper another way to push his extreme right-wing agenda, which a majority of Canadians do not support.

        • Yes, Germany or Portugal. Not us.

        • "extreme right-wing agenda"

          Blah, Blah, Blah!

          • You're sounding pretty rational Gary. Makes us all want to agree with your comments.

          • I could care less IF you agree!
            I state my opinion and move on. If you prefer the sheeple method, go ahead, agree with all the head in sand people here!

    • Canada present government is one of the last bastions of neo-conservatism.

      Anyone interested in responsible, reality-based government has to oppose Canada assuming one of the Security Council's rotating seats. Why would a government who doesn't believe in International law or the United Nations get a seat on the Security Council? All the Hapers would do is attempt to undermine the UN.
      Canada right now would be a disaster. At the minimum, the Harper government would embarrass us. Potentially they could cause us and the world long term damage.

      • Time to commit yourself………….you appear delusional!

        • There you go again, convincing us all.

        • are you the average Harper supporter??…….explains a lot……and reinforces my own thoughts on the subject……I can't abide the new PC Party……they aren't even close to the PC I used to vote for and am sick to death of the Republican playbook Harper seems to be reading from!

          • I don't know, am I a run of the mill Harper supporter? What do they look like? I don't think he looks like a typical Republican at all, in fact he seems a bit left of Obama in some cases!

  8. i can't wait until they just have at 'er. Israel will kick the living hell out of them all, and it'll have been a long time coming. preferably this summer, as it will be welcome TV before the hockey season resumes.

    • I hope they kill lot's more little kids this time. Last time they didn't kill enough. I didn't feel as tough as I otherwise would have while watching it on the teevee.

      • Would be really fun if you were in the front of the line!
        Another usefull idiot for their cause!

        • You'd be embarrassed to sit in a room of adults and have your comment history read out loud.

          • Ummmmmmmmmm……….no!
            You people make ME embarrased to call myself Canadian!
            I see so few adults on this site, judging by the simpleton rhetoric echoed by most here, that usually comes from listening to dumbass University Profs!

  9. What is tacitly being wispered is that Isreal cannot enforce a blockade of weapons (we know with certainty its for weapons, because they let tens of thousands of tons a day of aid goods ect into GAZA such that there is no humanitarian crises whatsoever to speak of).

    The other boats played by the rules, had the inspection without moment. The boat in issue (btw have you seen the manifest -tons of terrorist links, or the video of the death chants to Isreal on board before the attempted inspection, or the videos of the first soldiers being met with stabbing, clubbing and being shot at?)

    The reality is that many tacitly believe Israel has no right to defend itself, not in substance.

    Sad.

  10. And CNN is reporting right now that Hamas is refusing to let in trucked in aid from Isreal.

    Lovely. If they can't ship it in, in a way that allows a few tons of missles, then they don't want it.

    Pretty much goes with the territory of putting weapons caches in schools and missle launchers on hospital roofs. Course they're the darlings of the left, so no cries of war crime for them (both of which are obvious war crimes).

  11. All "settler" countries have to support each other! These nations have the same history, ousting people that were already there!

  12. …ang skot that's happened since the dawn of time, so what's your point?

    Go Israel go!
    They'll condemn if you do anything less and kill you if you don't do more.

    Don't give a rats a$$ about the U(seless)N security council – nothing but a buncha corrupt third world appeasers with an eye for the westernized working class's taxes to keep for themselves, their kids and the boots they hire and then they'll tightly control our lives to the point our country is in a third world mess. Kinda like what BO is doing state side.
    They were so keen on the global warming ponzi scheme to rid us of our hard earned money.
    I'm embarrassed that Cnd has to deal with them at all these days. Loved it when my last unsolicited phone call crying for money "for aids babies in Africa" came through. Said: Think it's kinder to let them die now. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/so
    Love it when I can get them to hang up on me.
    So how's Darfur and Sudan doing these days hm lefties?
    Leftists appeasing terrorists should also be spelt h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e-s.

    Ding me down now, just like good little puppets! LOL

  13. 69. The mere fact that a neutral merchant vessel is armed provides no grounds for attacking it.
    (in case you are tempted in arguing that sticks constitute as''arms'' – for the purpose of armed conflict)
    and
    – The flotilla had no military objective.

    Ah, not to cut too fine a point BUT the flotilla was NOT being attacked – just boarded for inspections then the attacks happened first BY peace activists – war mongers in my books.
    The others six ships did allow IDF to board for inspections and no problems, but then their activists didn't have thousands of dollars in their back pockets with bullet holes in their bodies at the end of the day either.

    NONE of those peace activists – war mongers, had any business in some OTHER country's business/conflict in the first place.
    They wanted this and paid the ultimate price. Too bad so sad. If Israel has to break so called UN laws so be it.
    The UN is corrupt from the top down these days and their hate of Israel is astoundingly obvious. Glad Israel thumbed their noses at the lousy corrupted UN's lip flapping on this.

    This is just precious … – "The flotilla had no military objective."
    Yeah right and hamas is a peaceful political movement in keeping with human rights worthy of a noble peace prize again!
    LOL
    And just in case you're next going to tell me how improvrished the Palis are here's some pictures for you. http://www.paltoday.ps/arabic/News-64161.html

  14. *impoverished

  15. wsam opined:
    "I hope they kill lot's more little kids this time"

    don't worry wsam…..a lot of kids will die in any event, particularly if Hamas continues their current "leadership" style of tossing folks off the roofs of houses and buildings.

    Sarcasm aside…..I think it's clear from the comments you don't really give a damn about dead kids……as long as they're Jewish.

    go back to your hole, grab your popcorn and watch more "decapitation" videos……….

    I'm sure you find them VERY entertaining.

    • WOW!
      I agree and all with what you are saying, but I'm sure I'd be crucified here if I tried to be that blunt! LOL!
      Carry on……………….

      • We still have a modicum of free speech, Gary,

        Besides, if a poster is not using a real name you can not be accused of slander or libel as you are not hurting anyone's reputation. Lastly, the truth is still somewhat defensible……for now.

        I'd prefer to sit here and simply wait for the fatwa.

    • Reports are that flak jackets and night vision goggles were found on board.
      Part of my daily nutritional requirements!

  16. bla bla bla ….wha wha wha … and etc.

    There will only be peace in the ME when the hate filled Moslem Arabs honor life more than death.

    They – the war mongers from all the other countries, got what they deserved and if you don't like my opinion too bad for you. I don't care what you think and I'm not responsible for you way of thinking – that's your responsibility.

    Live by hate and suicidal death, die by hate and suicidal death…been a good business for them for decades and will continue to be so because Israel exists. I'll stand behind Israel's right to defend themselves through any means necessary.
    So the once great UN is now a cesspool of idiots, tyrants and criminals, doesn't make it right today. Things change from bad to worse or from good to bad, or bad to fair and etc.; that's life baby.
    The UN is NOW corrupt to the nines and filled with extreme islamic based terrorists.
    Now ding me down like a good little puppet.

    Go Israel Go! You'll be damned anyway and dead if you don't.
    My compassion is for those that honor life and not death.

    • I really enjoy some of the irony you present…

      Couple words you've used at your leisure: ''lefties'' and ''warmongers''.

      You do realize that Israel came to being by and through ''lefties'' and ''warmongers'' right? From its leadership to its allies… I'd love to hear you argue that David Ben-Gurion was not a ''lefty'' or that Pinhas Lavon was not a ''warmonger''. I'd love to hear you deny that Israel's first forays into military conflict was not crucially tied to the support from the USSR. I'd love to hear your justification for the Deir Yassin massacre. I'd love to hear your descriptions of bombings in Egypt (and other places) if not pure unadulterated terrorism… Terror breeds terror.

      Please, tell me how Israel has honoured life and not death (not just today, but yesterday).

      • The Turkish ship in question was stopped in the processing of breaking a blockade, which is in violation of Section 67(a) of San Remo Manual of International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea

        67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

        (a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture

        • I don't quite see the relevance of your reply to my post. Perhaps, that reply was better suited to an earlier post.

          However…

          1. On an earlier reply of yours, you said it wasn't an attack (precisely: ''Ah, not to cut too fine a point BUT the flotilla was NOT being attacked). The San Remo concerns armed conflict. I suppose you have now changed your mind? It is now an attack?

          2. The San Remo Manual of International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea IS NOT BINDING!!!!
          (the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea is BINDING – but Israel hasn't signed on)

          3. Since you've taken to reading 67 (a), how about you go to 68 (then paragraphs 38-46). You'll note that this cherry picked justification does not apply. (BUT AGAIN, IT IS NOT BINDING)

        • Oh, and there's more in the San Remo you might not want to read:

          102. The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:

          (a) it has the sole purpose of starving the civilian population or denying it other objects essential for its survival; or
          (b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

          It's the B part that I'm dying to hear you counter argue!

      • AND

        Don't like my words or phrasaes, too bad for you, here's a simple solution -don't read them and don't respond to them, like I shall do so with your lunactic rants from this point forward.

        Go Israel Go. They'll condemn you no matter what and kill you if you don't defend yourself.

        • Who said I didn't like your words or phrases? In fact, I said ''I really enjoy some of the irony you present.''

          Lunatic rants eh? You'll have to be more specific.

          Speaking of lunacy.. That 3rd part of yours is tinged with paranoia!!!

  17. Clearly Israel made the worst of the situation. Put aside any moral or ethical questions for the moment and just focus on the quality of the public relations. Israel acted like a lunatic state rife with paranoia. How is this helping Israel? How is turning the Gaza strip into a prison camp helping the state of Israel. How is killing people on the high seas anything but an act of piracy? God's people don't look so special now that's for sure. For the first time in my life there were anti Israel demonstrations in my home town and I was part of one of them. So were priests, lay people, Palestinians, Irish and a few moral Jews.

    • Geald O'Hare wrote:
      "So were priests, lay people, Palestinians, Irish and a few moral Jews."

      In other words, Geald, all the Jews who weren't there were somehow "immoral?"

      Hmm…..that last sentence says more about your true feelings than anything else you wrote.

      Shalom.

  18. It is sad that some of the people on the Freedom flotilla had to die for freedom.
    I think every person on the ship had courage, to give a voice to starving, misplaced
    people in Gaza. I read that Israel shot on the deck first before entering the ship.

  19. 'Read' where Phil?
    Provide a link please, because the video shows the truth and "misplaced people in Gaza" … who would that be?
    Where were they misplaced from in the first place.

    • I think that "misplaced" was meant to be "displaced". Most Gazans (and many 'west bank' ers are DP's and their descendants from the rest of Palestine and Israel at the time of the Nakbah (catastrophe), when they were forced from their homes by BenGurion, the Stern Gang, et al in 1946-48 in order to creat a 'Jewish State'.
      Suggest reading Israeli historian Ilan Pappe's "Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" & "A history of Modern Palestine".

      Not sure where he 'read' it but I've heard that from a retired US diplomat/ambassador and from a retired Canadian engineer who were in the flotilla.
      In fact the diplomat (Edward Peck) interrupted the CBC interviewer when she referred to 'attacking the Soldiers' to say "NO. They were not attacking the soldiers, they were defending their ship against attackers in international waters… with whatever they could find. (They were all searched for weapons and had, even pocket knives confiscated before boarding the ships)

  20. It's time people were made aware of the 1994 Gaza-Jericho agreement which served as the basis of Israel withdrawing from Gaza.
    READ IT AND WEEP you anti-semetics.

    As part of Israel's responsibilites for safety and security with in the "Maritime Activity zones, Israel Navy vessels may sail throughout these zones, as necessary and with out limitations and may take any measure necessary against vessels suspected of being used for terrorist activities, or for smuggling arms, ammunition, drugs, goods or for any other legal activity."
    This means -even in International waters!

  21. The willful ignorance demonstrated in some of these posts is amazing. Just watch Turkey. This is just the start of their wish to become the leaders of the Islamist world (as they used to be). They used Israel in a deliberate provocation and I am amazed Israel fell for it. How different is the prime minister of Turkey from the leader of Hamas: sending their own people to their death to their own advantage. And the world sides with these monsters.

  22. Turkey is an "important" US ally? The Turks got everything they needed out of their Cold War alliance with the US – protection from the Soviet Union and security for their borders secured through the genocide of the Armenians and ethnic cleansing of the Greeks during and immediately after WWI. Remember how, when push came to shove in 2003, Turkey refused to let the American troops enter Iraq through its territory and tried in the meantime to extort billions of dollars from their American ally.

    • Wow, what a coincidence!!!! Israel got everything they needed out of their partnership with the Soviet Union too!

      Without the precious weapons and supplies from the USSR, there is no way Israel would have made their military statements back in her early days. FACT!!!

      (go ahead, deny it.. Label me an anti-Semitic/terrorist lover, whatever)

  23. Today Turkey's apologists will not miss a chance to trump up the fact that it is the only Muslim country which sent troops to Afghanistan – what they fail to mention though is the fact that so far Turks have sustained only 2 (!) casualties in Afghanistan and even those were the result of a road accident, not combat-related death. So what kind of help is Turkey to the Americans in their fight against al-Qaeda and Taliban? They're just trying to sit on both sides of the fence – if Americans prevail, they will say "See, we were in Afghanistan with you," and if Taliban prevails, they will say "See, we have never shot a single Talib or al-Qaeda guy."

    • ''They're just trying to sit on both sides of the fence''

      I can name you a whole bunch of countries who like to ''sit on both sides of the fence'', one really powerful country too!

      BTW. I take it, according to you, for a country to be perceived as helpful, it needs to have a decent body count?

  24. The Turks and their prime minister are known to speak out of both sides of mouth: When the Armenian genocide resolution appears on the agenda of Congress, he will remind Israel and American-Jewish organizations that Turkey is Israel's strategic ally to secure their help in defeating the genocide resolution and when Israel resorts to force to protect itself against attacks from Hamas militants, PM Erdogan will drape himself in the mantle of the protector of Islam and Muslims by charging Israel of commiting a genocide and promising that Israel will be a high price for it. Some ally!

  25. Today's turkey has drifed too far away from it's previous policy of secularism. The new leaders of Turkey jailed all of the senior military folks whose job is was to prevent creeping sharia and a return to extremism. Sadly, there are none left to save the Turks from a return to repression. I give it 20 years…..and the women of Turkey will again be covered head to toe in body-bags for the living, and the populace will again be living in fear.

    • Yes. Turkey and Egypt both have reversed course, sadly.

  26. Well, its sad for the people of Egypt and Turkey. However, if the WEST ever comes around to the fact that ISLAM is an evil religion and takes steps to prevent the infection from spreading, the harm will be minimized.
    A country governmed by ISLAM, tends to stay stuck in the past. Look at every Islamic country in the world today and ask where they would be if not for Western technology. They'd still be living in the desert in tents, driving camels and banging sheep.

    Any country governed under Sharia, will again fall back to that primitive level, while the WEST and other genuinely civilized societies will continue to thrive…..that is, if we can ever dump these nanny-welfare statists from most Western nations from power.