215

That Beatles M.A.: where art thou, Melody Ziff?

Colby Cosh on Mary-Lu Zahalan-Kennedy’s world-first “graduate degree in the Beatles”


 

I’m vexed when it comes to the subject of Mary-Lu Zahalan-Kennedy’s world-first “graduate degree in the Beatles”, which has made the Canadian singer and future Sheridan College instructor an ephemeral worldwide celebrity. The sneerers are out in force on the net, which was predictable, if weirdly anachronistic in the year 2011. Apparently the souls of those who got huffy about “more popular than Jesus” and the Boer War pensioners who couldn’t tell if the Beatles were male or female have somehow transmigrated into the bodies of present-day philistines. Put simply, the Beatles are one of the pivotal cultural phenomena of the 20th century, and if they are beneath the notice of the liberal arts, then anything is. Any argument against graduate-level study of the Beatles—whose compositions Deryck Cooke, one of the greatest of musicologists, thought worthy of his attention—would extend readily to cover any popular idiom, throwing its penumbra naturally over operetta and ballet and zarzuela and the blues. Before you could say “Bach’s your uncle”, there would be nothing left of musicology at all beyond the deconstruction of fugues.

Moreover, the actual stuff of Zahalan-Kennedy’s thesis, unmentioned in most reports, sounds fascinating. Who knew that the Beatles hit big here in Canada as early as 1962? That’s a story worth re-telling after half a century. Maybe even in Maclean’s magazine!

But on the other hand…there is a heavy thumbprint of marketing on this piece of news, and it’s tough to watch Ms. Zahalan-Kennedy defending the seriousness of an enterprise that has the silliness baked right in. It’s tough, in part, because one senses that she will have to do it for the rest of her life. But there’s also the issue that her degree from Liverpool Hope University is hardly groundbreaking in any real respect; surely it’s just a bog-standard cultural-studies/history credential from an otherwise undistinguished (albeit conveniently situated) institution? The academy doesn’t really give out degrees “in” the Beatles, any more than it gives them out “in” Christopher Marlowe or Greek koiné or leptons, or for that matter the Dave Clark Five. It’s the process and the standards, not the particular subject matter, that are supposed to be the point.

As an assignment editor could probably figure out if he sat down and thought about it for a moment, there are probably dozens if not hundreds of people who have already received advanced degrees on the basis of Beatle-related thesis content. As Hunter Davies noted in his authorized biography-cum-handbook The Beatles:

In the early 1980s, I was asked to be an outside examiner for a student at London University who was doing a Ph.D. on the Beatles. I thought it was a leg-pull at first. I’d heard that some minor American universities had introduced such studies, but not any British ones, certainly not one as distinguished and rigorous as London University. I can still remember her name, Melody Ziff. She was, in fact, American, but London University had accepted her to study for a Ph.D. Her thesis, as I remember, was called “The Beatles’ lyrics as poetry”.

Today, there are universities, colleges, and schools all over the globe, eminent and otherwise, offering courses that include a study of the Beatles…

The philistines will question the “cash value” of close study of the Beatles, and while that is beside the point, it still seems remarkable given the unquestionably enormous number of people, from the time of the Monkees to that of Oasis, who have made millionaires of themselves by raiding the Beatles’ bag of tricks. There have to be at least as many of those as there are rich economists or physicists.


 

That Beatles M.A.: where art thou, Melody Ziff?

  1. If popular culture is fair game for a Master's Degree, then the Beatles certainly qualify. They were the seminal rock band and many, if not most that followed used them as a benchmark. I dare to venture that their music will live on as the dominent genre of the latter 20th century.

    I'm glad that the controversy exists, it distracts people's attention from defending the Teabagger's, Sarah Palin, our own Dear Leader and French on Corn Flakes boxes.

  2. If popular culture is fair game for a Master's Degree, then the Beatles certainly qualify. They were the seminal rock band and many, if not most that followed used them as a benchmark. I dare to venture that their music will live on as the dominent genre of the latter 20th century.

    I'm glad that the controversy exists, it distracts people's attention from defending the Teabagger's, Sarah Palin, our own Dear Leader and French on Corn Flakes boxes.

    • Also, says my friend the amateur Beatles-ologist, the seminal boy band.

  3. While we'll never know for certain, I think that the frozen in time John Lennon would have been highly amused by this.
    Paul McCartney, on the other hand, has been allowed the gift of reflection from an elderly perspective. Would he also be amused, or would he be proud? After all, both his life, and his life's work have joined the pantheon of the "classics."

  4. While we'll never know for certain, I think that the frozen in time John Lennon would have been highly amused by this.
    Paul McCartney, on the other hand, has been allowed the gift of reflection from an elderly perspective. Would he also be amused, or would he be proud? After all, both his life, and his life's work have joined the pantheon of the "classics."

  5. Was the issue the idea of a thesis centering on the Beatles or that it seemed like the University had created an entire department to study the field?

  6. Was the issue the idea of a thesis centering on the Beatles or that it seemed like the University had created an entire department to study the field?

    • Not so much a department, but they definitely have an entire M.A. program on the Beatles. I argued below that while it may still be largely a marketing gimmick in a technical sense I believe that it is accurate to say that this university DOES give out degrees "in" the Beatles.

  7. What's the big deal…..

    Degress started losing their lustre when they started being awarded for various uselss endeavors such as…

    "degree in Irish short stories"……. (who, besides a University would hire you?)
    "Women's studies…." (Soon to be renamed the "Degree in Victimhood")
    "Madonna"… (I got nuthin)

    etc…etc…

    I would suspect the only reason for such degrees are for folks who basically can't do math….or can't string a sentence together.

    Now…just imagine….In Canada; under Michael Ignatief…..we'd be paying for them.

  8. What's the big deal…..

    Degress started losing their lustre when they started being awarded for various uselss endeavors such as…

    "degree in Irish short stories"……. (who, besides a University would hire you?)
    "Women's studies…." (Soon to be renamed the "Degree in Victimhood")
    "Madonna"… (I got nuthin)

    etc…etc…

    I would suspect the only reason for such degrees are for folks who basically can't do math….or can't string a sentence together.

    Now…just imagine….In Canada; under Michael Ignatief…..we'd be paying for them.

    • Do you have a checklist that you go through before you post?

      Insult academics … check
      Get in a dig at feminists … check
      Rap up post on a completely unrelated topic with a criticism of Micheal Ignatieff … send

      • My aplogies tobyornotoby….

        I’m sure you find your Women’s Studies degree very helpful………………..

      • A checklist would require a certain amount of academic rigour.

        • And my checklists rarely stop at three items.

  9. The academy doesn't really give out degrees “in” the Beatles.

    Actually, they do. She didn't just do a history or music M.A. with a thesis on the Beatles, her whole program is on the Beatles. Just as a history grad could legitimately write M.A. (History) as her post-nominal, this woman could write M.A. (The Beatles, Popular Music and Society) as hers.

    Not that this isn't also arguably a case of marketing "spin" but in a strictly technical sense I believe that the University does give out degrees "in" the Beatles.

  10. The academy doesn't really give out degrees “in” the Beatles.

    Actually, they do. She didn't just do a history or music M.A. with a thesis on the Beatles, her whole program is on the Beatles. Just as a history grad could legitimately write M.A. (History) as her post-nominal, this woman could write M.A. (The Beatles, Popular Music and Society) as hers.

    Not that this isn't also arguably a case of marketing "spin" but in a strictly technical sense I believe that the University does give out degrees "in" the Beatles.

  11. I was going to comment that most of the sneering seemed to be aimed at advanced education rather than specifically the Beetles topic, but James wrote a beautiful first person account that was much more eloquent than I anything could achieve.

    The current two-headed attack on higher knowledge is tragic. From the right, we get if I don't get why this is important in 5 seconds it is trivial (Beatles, sex life of beatles etc) or even worse, if it disagrees with a blogger I like it is fraud (climate change) From the left, we get vague science doesn't know everything hence my neighborhood mystic is probably right, through to continual multinational conspiracy theories. It is almost like humanity is compelled to periodically generate a dark age.

    ps. almost on topic: here is a fun fact just for CR http://www.onlineschools.org/2009/10/21/10-surpri

  12. I was going to comment that most of the sneering seemed to be aimed at advanced education rather than specifically the Beetles topic, but James wrote a beautiful first person account that was much more eloquent than I anything could achieve.

    The current two-headed attack on higher knowledge is tragic. From the right, we get if I don't get why this is important in 5 seconds it is trivial (Beatles, sex life of beatles etc) or even worse, if it disagrees with a blogger I like it is fraud (climate change) From the left, we get vague science doesn't know everything hence my neighborhood mystic is probably right, through to continual multinational conspiracy theories. It is almost like humanity is compelled to periodically generate a dark age.

    ps. almost on topic: here is a fun fact just for CR http://www.onlineschools.org/2009/10/21/10-surpri

    • STewart Smith wrote:
      "most of the sneering seemed to be aimed at advanced education rather than specifically the Beetles topic, but James wrote a beautiful first person account that was much more eloquent than I anything could achieve."

      I do what I can Stewie. Of course, given that I have an advanced eduation, I am not so much sneering at it, as I am in pointing out that all degrees are not created equal. My degrees happend to be in Commerce…accounting and Finance. However, I do enjoy listening to the Beatles on occassion; and in fact know most of the lyrics.

      What I feel NO INCLINATION to do however……is write an essay on the cultural importance of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" I'm not sure anyone but the surviving BEATLES themselves could actually make a living at it.

      As for your link…..it was interesting in a light hearted way. After all……who would have thought the semi-literates Mike Tyson or George Foreman would have a doctorate?

      Honourary being the caveat of course.

      • Thanks, for not going all prissy wrt my dig at you.

        My understanding is that case studies play a major role in commerce. I wonder how many of those case studies generated less wealth than the Beatles? How many products have been more effectively marketed than the Beatles?

        Of course, wealth generation is only a small component of the Beatles phenomena. There is a very legitimate question of whether such simple music could ever be really that good. There are also some neat technical angles (Bachman did a nice bit on Vinyl Tap once about the transition to stereo that took place during the Beatle's run.) However, culturally it is the whole Beatle cult thing that is likely more important. Having a nice, positive cult that one can study in fair detail is probably a good idea, if we want to understand how a few people can cause the masses to behave in an irrational fashion. Unfortunately not all cults are nice.

        That said, sure this is probably a dime-store degree…. but I would argue not because of the subject.

        • Stewart_Smith wrote:
          "Thanks, for not going all prissy wrt my dig at you. "

          I don't get pissy when the "digs" are actually worthy. It's the lame A_s crap from folks like Emily and Holly that engender a response.

          Case studies play a large part of it……as for the case studies for the beatles…..it would have made more sense if they were all still alive and playing together. Now, we're just dealing with royalties.

          My complaint with such degrees is NOT that they don't provide some sort of satisfaction for those who have EARNED them, it's dissatisfaction with folks who hold useless degress and then complain about not being able to find a job USING their degree.

          • Case in point: Irish short stories.

            Unless you want to become a University Professor teaching,….you guessed it, "Irish Short stories"….don't complain to anyone when the only job you can find is moving a bunch of stuff from a pallet to a truck.

            2nd A degree in Women's studies…., if it makes you feel better knowing the struggle women have had to reach equality in the world….great. Glad you've taken the time to learn about it. (Though, anyone who has been alive the last 30 years already knows it). But if you can't get a well paying job that has to do with women's studies….don't complain about it. You knew what you were getting into when you forked out the dough.

            I was going to get a Degree in English…..but thought I would have more opportunities if I knew about business, finance, and accounting. I took English as a minor….loved it (Hamlet….best play ever)……but found work in Finance far more lucrative. If I want to relax….I crack open a good book.

          • Now this women with her Beatles degree……couldn't she have spent her time learning about something that will provide her an opportunity to expand her horizons? If she loved the Beatles so much….se could have dropped $19.99 for their collective works, and saved herself the $75,000 she spent on tuition.

          • I'll never understand why people are so concerned about what other people do with their lives.

          • LdKitchersOwn wrote:
            "I'll never understand why people are so concerned about what other people do with their lives"

            I don't care what other people do……as long as I don't have to pay for it.

          • Also, the complete works of the Beatles aren't available for $19.99. The Box Set on iTunes is $149.

          • Finance degree indeed…..

          • Part of Finance Mike T….is knowing how to budget and get the best deals.

            Paying less for the same item….is just good business sense.

          • Since we're on the subject of denigrating the learning of others, I've always been of the opinion that a business school has no place whatsoever on a university campus.

      • who would have thought the semi-literates Mike Tyson or George Foreman would have a doctorate?

        And who would have thought that semi-literates like Jacques Demers would be appointed to the Senate?

        Funny world, eh?

        • I thought Jacques Demers was fully-illiterate?

          as for his appointment to the Senate……..you can see that being able to read and write hasn't really made a lot of difference with that group eh?

          Hmm…what does that tell you?

          • So you're a glorified bookeeper eh? A bean-counter…a Bob Cratchit of your time…well, that's nice.

            It would never have occurred to me to get such a limited degree….but to each his own.

            Something a supposed Libertarian like you should agree with.

            If you had some other kind of degree, you'd know that Irish literature is a vast field, and graduates have always found jobs. And women's studies covers all of history, not just press clippings from the past 30 years. They too manage to get jobs.

            Of course if you ONLY want to get a job, I guess you should go to trade school….and skip any thought of being educated about the world you live in.

            Demers, btw, is functionally illiterate. That means not enough literacy to be able to function in today's society. The senate works around him….he's only there to vote yes on anything Harper wants anyway.

          • Emily asked:
            "So you're a glorified bookeeper eh? A bean-counter…a Bob Cratchit of your time…well, that's nice. "

            Actually, Emily….it really is. YOu can't imagine the freedom that comes with financial independence. (And I'm sure you never will)

            She goes on:
            "If you had some other kind of degree, you'd know that Irish literature is a vast field, and graduates have always found jobs."

            Actually, Emily, I choose "Irish short stores" for a reason. I know someone who works at a cabinet making shop…and that's what his degree is in. He took it at University because he knew it would be easy. No math, no science….and no requirement for original thought. No worries though, he does good honest work…and who knows, maybe he dreams of Ireland during his breaks.

          • Emily goes on:
            "And women's studies covers all of history, not just press clippings from the past 30 years. They too manage to get jobs"

            I agree Emily, they do get jobs. Some get jobs in retail, some get jobs in secretarial work, but of course, the best job for that degree is a Government Job under "Equity Employment" etc..etc……
            Now if only there was an actual company that specialized in women's studies. Oh wait…there is. It's called COSMOPOLITAN.

          • EMily's idiocy continues:
            "Of course if you ONLY want to get a job, I guess you should go to trade school….and skip any thought of being educated about the world you live in."

            I don't need to go to trade school. I already know how to drywall, do electrical, paint, woodwork/cabinet building, plumbing…etc..etc. Anyone guy who owns a house should know these things. You seem to be of the mind that knowing how to swing a hammer or work power tools means you are somehow less intelligent? Hmmm…you are definitely a LIBERAL. The arrogance shines through.

            by the way Emily……do you kill your own spiders?

  13. Not so much a department, but they definitely have an entire M.A. program on the Beatles. I argued below that while it may still be largely a marketing gimmick in a technical sense I believe that it is accurate to say that this university DOES give out degrees "in" the Beatles.

  14. Do you have a checklist that you go through before you post?

    Insult academics … check
    Get in a dig at feminists … check
    Rap up post on a completely unrelated topic with a criticism of Micheal Ignatieff … send

  15. My aplogies tobyornotoby….

    I’m sure you find your Women’s Studies degree very helpful………………..

  16. BEETLES…..

    my bad.

  17. STewart Smith wrote:
    "most of the sneering seemed to be aimed at advanced education rather than specifically the Beetles topic, but James wrote a beautiful first person account that was much more eloquent than I anything could achieve."

    I do what I can Stewie. Of course, given that I have an advanced eduation, I am not so much sneering at it, as I am in pointing out that all degrees are not created equal. My degrees happend to be in Commerce…accounting and Finance. However, I do enjoy listening to the Beatles on occassion; and in fact know most of the lyrics.

    What I feel NO INCLINATION to do however……is write an essay on the cultural importance of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" I'm not sure anyone but the surviving BEATLES themselves could actually make a living at it.

    As for your link…..it was interesting in a light hearted way. After all……who would have thought the semi-literates Mike Tyson or George Foreman would have a doctorate?

    Honourary being the caveat of course.

  18. BEETLES…..

    my bad.

    • You had it right with Beatles actually. Two ee's are the insects, the name with "beat" is the band.

  19. Which do you prefer?

    Beetles vs. Beatles.

    I've seen it both ways….anyone know the most preferred?

  20. Which do you prefer?

    Beetles vs. Beatles.

    I've seen it both ways….anyone know the most preferred?

    • Beatles is the band, beetles are the bugs. The easy way to remember is to think that the Beatles have a good "beat" (or possibly, were part of the "beat" generation). There's apparently some disagreement as to whether the "beat" spelling was Lennon's idea or McCartney's.

      Interestingly, one influence for the name was Buddy Holly's band, The Crickets.

  21. A checklist would require a certain amount of academic rigour.

  22. Thanks, for not going all prissy wrt my dig at you.

    My understanding is that case studies play a major role in commerce. I wonder how many of those case studies generated less wealth than the Beatles? How many products have been more effectively marketed than the Beatles?

    Of course, wealth generation is only a small component of the Beatles phenomena. There is a very legitimate question of whether such simple music could ever be really that good. There are also some neat technical angles (Bachman did a nice bit on Vinyl Tap once about the transition to stereo that took place during the Beatle's run.) However, culturally it is the whole Beatle cult thing that is likely more important. Having a nice, positive cult that one can study in fair detail is probably a good idea, if we want to understand how a few people can cause the masses to behave in an irrational fashion. Unfortunately not all cults are nice.

    That said, sure this is probably a dime-store degree…. but I would argue not because of the subject.

  23. Beatles is the band, beetles are the bugs. The easy way to remember is to think that the Beatles have a good "beat" (or possibly, were part of the "beat" generation). There's apparently some disagreement as to whether the "beat" spelling was Lennon's idea or McCartney's.

    Interestingly, one influence for the name was Buddy Holly's band, The Crickets.

  24. You had it right with Beatles actually. Two ee's are the insects, the name with "beat" is the band.

  25. There are degrees in Shakespeare….so I don't see this as anything odd.

  26. There are degrees in Shakespeare….so I don't see this as anything odd.

  27. And my checklists rarely stop at three items.

  28. Stewart_Smith wrote:
    "Thanks, for not going all prissy wrt my dig at you. "

    I don't get pissy when the "digs" are actually worthy. It's the lame A_s crap from folks like Emily and Holly that engender a response.

    Case studies play a large part of it……as for the case studies for the beatles…..it would have made more sense if they were all still alive and playing together. Now, we're just dealing with royalties.

    My complaint with such degrees is NOT that they don't provide some sort of satisfaction for those who have EARNED them, it's dissatisfaction with folks who hold useless degress and then complain about not being able to find a job USING their degree.

  29. Case in point: Irish short stories.

    Unless you want to become a University Professor teaching,….you guessed it, "Irish Short stories"….don't complain to anyone when the only job you can find is moving a bunch of stuff from a pallet to a truck.

    2nd A degree in Women's studies…., if it makes you feel better knowing the struggle women have had to reach equality in the world….great. Glad you've taken the time to learn about it. (Though, anyone who has been alive the last 30 years already knows it). But if you can't get a well paying job that has to do with women's studies….don't complain about it. You knew what you were getting into when you forked out the dough.

    I was going to get a Degree in English…..but thought I would have more opportunities if I knew about business, finance, and accounting. I took English as a minor….loved it (Hamlet….best play ever)……but found work in Finance far more lucrative. If I want to relax….I crack open a good book.

  30. Now this women with her Beatles degree……couldn't she have spent her time learning about something that will provide her an opportunity to expand her horizons? If she loved the Beatles so much….se could have dropped $19.99 for their collective works, and saved herself the $75,000 she spent on tuition.

  31. Emily….

    Shakespeare was a genious, and his works have survived for hundreds of years, and will no doubt survive for hundreds more. He's been translated into most languages, and the work still makes sense because Shakespeare understood the human condition. He knew our frailties, hopes, desires….all of it.

    The Beatles…..mostly famous in the 60's. Loved by the Hippie generation (Including the PM….who is most decidely NOT a hippie), but not exactly what you would consider to be high art. Just a bunch of guys who wrote some pretty good tunes….mostly played while the listeners were somewhat, er…..travelling on a higher plane.

    Two hundred years from now……….I doubt they will have comparable impact.

  32. Emily….

    Shakespeare was a genious, and his works have survived for hundreds of years, and will no doubt survive for hundreds more. He's been translated into most languages, and the work still makes sense because Shakespeare understood the human condition. He knew our frailties, hopes, desires….all of it.

    The Beatles…..mostly famous in the 60's. Loved by the Hippie generation (Including the PM….who is most decidely NOT a hippie), but not exactly what you would consider to be high art. Just a bunch of guys who wrote some pretty good tunes….mostly played while the listeners were somewhat, er…..travelling on a higher plane.

    Two hundred years from now……….I doubt they will have comparable impact.

    • Shakespeare is considered profound, a genius and very high-brow now, but in his day he was just entertainment for the masses. Steven Spielberg or James Cameron 400 years ago. Special effects, love, war, death, comedy.

      His work gave us an insight into his times, but he didn't change his society. It's only because scholars delved into his work at all that we've come to know what he said. There were other playwrights after all….just as 'profound', but often ignored. So his work may be known world-wide now, but he was very local at the time, and considered 'common'.

      The Beatles helped bring about massive change in society….good and bad….and their work was known world-wide as they did it. They innovated a huge turnabout in the 20th century….from the devastion of two world wars to 'peace and love'.

      Harper is a boomer….he is not a hippie…..although Ayn Rand called Libertarians 'hippies of the right'.

      • I saw the Beatles first concert in Canada….I wasn't impressed, but lots of people were…and it encouraged a whole new movement in music, thought and popular culture. Which will eventually be considered high-culture.

        400 years from now the Beatles will be considered elitist high-brow entertainment, and something new will be going on.

        • Emily wrote:
          "Which will eventually be considered high-culture."

          Actually, Emily…..I used to live in BC. One usually here's the Beatles mentioned more in "Cannabis Culture" than in high culture.

          To each his (or her) own.

          • Look up the word 'eventually'.

    • The Beatles…..mostly famous in the 60's

      You really think so? The BEATLES???

  33. Shakespeare is considered profound, a genius and very high-brow now, but in his day he was just entertainment for the masses. Steven Spielberg or James Cameron 400 years ago. Special effects, love, war, death, comedy.

    His work gave us an insight into his times, but he didn't change his society. It's only because scholars delved into his work at all that we've come to know what he said. There were other playwrights after all….just as 'profound', but often ignored. So his work may be known world-wide now, but he was very local at the time, and considered 'common'.

    The Beatles helped bring about massive change in society….good and bad….and their work was known world-wide as they did it. They innovated a huge turnabout in the 20th century….from the devastion of two world wars to 'peace and love'.

    Harper is a boomer….he is not a hippie…..although Ayn Rand called Libertarians 'hippies of the right'.

  34. I saw the Beatles first concert in Canada….I wasn't impressed, but lots of people were…and it encouraged a whole new movement in music, thought and popular culture. Which will eventually be considered high-culture.

    400 years from now the Beatles will be considered elitist high-brow entertainment, and something new will be going on.

  35. who would have thought the semi-literates Mike Tyson or George Foreman would have a doctorate?

    And who would have thought that semi-literates like Jacques Demers would be appointed to the Senate?

    Funny world, eh?

  36. I thought Jacques Demers was fully-illiterate?

    as for his appointment to the Senate……..you can see that being able to read and write hasn't really made a lot of difference with that group eh?

    Hmm…what does that tell you?

  37. Ahem…..

    ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet."

    vice.

    "I am the Walrus….koo…koo…kachu"

    Or how about:

    "To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
    Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
    To the last syllable of recorded time;
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    vice:

    "We all live in a yellow submarien…yellow submarine…yellow submarine"

    Emily…see what I'm getting at?

  38. Ahem…..

    ""What's in a name? That which we call a rose
    By any other name would smell as sweet."

    vice.

    "I am the Walrus….koo…koo…kachu"

    Or how about:

    "To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
    Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
    To the last syllable of recorded time;
    And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
    The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
    Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
    That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
    And then is heard no more. It is a tale
    Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
    Signifying nothing.

    vice:

    "We all live in a yellow submarien…yellow submarine…yellow submarine"

    Emily…see what I'm getting at?

    • and in the end
      the love you take
      is equal to the love
      you make

      Shakespeare? No. But I've never forgotten it and likely never will.

  39. One more…..

    "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite
    jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore me on his back a
    thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is!
    My gorge rises at it."

    vice.

    "love love me do….you know I'll be true….so pleeaaseeee…eeessseee…….love me do…."

  40. One more…..

    "Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio, a fellow of infinite
    jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore me on his back a
    thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is!
    My gorge rises at it."

    vice.

    "love love me do….you know I'll be true….so pleeaaseeee…eeessseee…….love me do…."

    • JOHN LENNON
      "Imagine"

      Imagine there's no heaven
      It's easy if you try
      No hell below us
      Above us only sky
      Imagine all the people
      Living for today…

      Imagine there's no countries
      It isn't hard to do
      Nothing to kill or die for
      And no religion too
      Imagine all the people
      Living life in peace…

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will be as one

      Imagine no possessions
      I wonder if you can
      No need for greed or hunger
      A brotherhood of man
      Imagine all the people
      Sharing all the world…

      You may say I'm a dreamer
      But I'm not the only one
      I hope someday you'll join us
      And the world will live as one

      • That's less wordy, but more profound for today's society.

        However, this isn't a issue of words used…it's about the effect each of them had on their society.

        I can't see any effect Shakespeare is having on today's society….other than allowing people like you to quote passages learned in high school…..but you can see the effect the advent of the Beatles had in today's headlines.

        • I'm glad you find the lyrics of "Imagine" profound. I find them platitudinous and dull.

          • Well, that's your problem, not mine.

  41. So you're a glorified bookeeper eh? A bean-counter…a Bob Cratchit of your time…well, that's nice.

    It would never have occurred to me to get such a limited degree….but to each his own.

    Something a supposed Libertarian like you should agree with.

    If you had some other kind of degree, you'd know that Irish literature is a vast field, and graduates have always found jobs. And women's studies covers all of history, not just press clippings from the past 30 years. They too manage to get jobs.

    Of course if you ONLY want to get a job, I guess you should go to trade school….and skip any thought of being educated about the world you live in.

    Demers, btw, is functionally illiterate. That means not enough literacy to be able to function in today's society. The senate works around him….he's only there to vote yes on anything Harper wants anyway.

  42. Emily wrote:
    "Which will eventually be considered high-culture."

    Actually, Emily…..I used to live in BC. One usually here's the Beatles mentioned more in "Cannabis Culture" than in high culture.

    To each his (or her) own.

  43. JOHN LENNON
    "Imagine"

    Imagine there's no heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today…

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace…

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world…

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one

  44. That's less wordy, but more profound for today's society.

    However, this isn't a issue of words used…it's about the effect each of them had on their society.

    I can't see any effect Shakespeare is having on today's society….other than allowing people like you to quote passages learned in high school…..but you can see the effect the advent of the Beatles had in today's headlines.

  45. Look up the word 'eventually'.

  46. EMily wrote:
    "I can't see any effect Shakespeare is having on today's society"

    If you can't appreciate the works of Shakespeare, Emily, that is your failing. Not mine.

    The very idea that you would compare one of John Lennon's songs to the works of Shakespeare pretty much confirms my opinion of you.

    Now go back to your homepage and finish harvesting those grapes on your Farmville villa.

  47. EMily wrote:
    "I can't see any effect Shakespeare is having on today's society"

    If you can't appreciate the works of Shakespeare, Emily, that is your failing. Not mine.

    The very idea that you would compare one of John Lennon's songs to the works of Shakespeare pretty much confirms my opinion of you.

    Now go back to your homepage and finish harvesting those grapes on your Farmville villa.

    • Shakespeare was hot stuff in the 1600's…not today. In fact I think we spend far too much time on such a relic.

      What you're saying here is that to you, things written 4 centuries ago are 'culture' whereas nothing has occurred since that has more bearing on our lives.

      Reminds me of my high school history classes that covered the War of the Roses but ended as WWI came up. LOL

      Or maybe it's the only literature you know.

      You can't debate this matter since you have a commerce degree, and no knowledge of a wider world….so you wax indignant, try to insult me, and huff off. LOL

      Read Joe Republican yet?

      • Shakespeare was the originator of over 1700 English words. Many household words would not exist today without Shakespeare (including the term "household words"). Here are some examples. I can virtually GUARANTEE that you can't go a whole day without using a word that Shakespeare invented. Some scholars have even argued that Shakespeare "invented" WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HUMAN BEING (see Harold Bloom's "Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human").

        Trust me on this one, Shakespeare's still hot stuff.

        • No, only to people with limited literary knowledge.

          And if Shakespeare was around today he wouldn't be able to speak English.

          • only to people with limited literary knowledge

            OK, I surrender, and I will return my M.A. in English Literature to my alma mater right away.

          • Only English lit?….see?

          • Of course! If I'd studied French Literature as well, then I'd totally understand that Shakespeare is no longer worth wasting so much time on!

          • French literature is hurt by the lack of full length works. French authors were no more likely to say in exasperation "I give up" than authors of other languages, but by nature of being French they actually did.

          • Hmmm racist ignorance….there's a start.

          • Yes, how ignorant not to know anything about French history, and to rely on equally ignorant sites.

          • If you'd studied Comparative Literature you'd know that, yes.

  48. Note:

    No offense to Farmville fans. I'm sure your life is very satisfying.

  49. Note:

    No offense to Farmville fans. I'm sure your life is very satisfying.

  50. Shakespeare was hot stuff in the 1600's…not today. In fact I think we spend far too much time on such a relic.

    What you're saying here is that to you, things written 4 centuries ago are 'culture' whereas nothing has occurred since that has more bearing on our lives.

    Reminds me of my high school history classes that covered the War of the Roses but ended as WWI came up. LOL

    Or maybe it's the only literature you know.

    You can't debate this matter since you have a commerce degree, and no knowledge of a wider world….so you wax indignant, try to insult me, and huff off. LOL

    Read Joe Republican yet?

  51. John Lennon wrote: and I respond in (parenthesis)

    "Imagine there's no heaven (easy…I'm an athiest too)
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us (see above comment)
    Above us only sky (CO2 has poisoned the sky according to Al Gore and Emily)
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today… (sounds like old age will be hard for those who don't plan for tomorrow)

    Imagine there's no countries (my god…we'd be Americanadians!!)
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for (what would we eat? What lack of passion)
    And no religion too (still atheist)
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace… (that means they are sleeping)

  52. You may say I'm a dreamer (deluded…dreamer, still starts with "d")
    But I'm not the only one (I know…they're called the NDP Caucus)
    I hope someday you'll join us (sorry, I'm not into groupthink)
    And the world will be as one (yep…consistently boring)

    Imagine no possessions (socialists already do)
    I wonder if you can (ask Jack Layton)
    No need for greed or hunger (yes, because "good feelings" fill the belly just fine)
    A brotherhood of man (sexist bastard!!)
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world… (sorry, sharing only works when someone actually produces something to BE shared. Dreamers aren't very productive)

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one (see above)

    Ok John…..tell me how that worked out for you?

  53. John Lennon wrote: and I respond in (parenthesis)

    "Imagine there's no heaven (easy…I'm an athiest too)
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us (see above comment)
    Above us only sky (CO2 has poisoned the sky according to Al Gore and Emily)
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today… (sounds like old age will be hard for those who don't plan for tomorrow)

    Imagine there's no countries (my god…we'd be Americanadians!!)
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for (what would we eat? What lack of passion)
    And no religion too (still atheist)
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace… (that means they are sleeping)

  54. You may say I'm a dreamer (deluded…dreamer, still starts with "d")
    But I'm not the only one (I know…they're called the NDP Caucus)
    I hope someday you'll join us (sorry, I'm not into groupthink)
    And the world will be as one (yep…consistently boring)

    Imagine no possessions (socialists already do)
    I wonder if you can (ask Jack Layton)
    No need for greed or hunger (yes, because "good feelings" fill the belly just fine)
    A brotherhood of man (sexist bastard!!)
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world… (sorry, sharing only works when someone actually produces something to BE shared. Dreamers aren't very productive)

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one (see above)

    Ok John…..tell me how that worked out for you?

    • Gosh…a Coles notes on just one song already. LOL

      Hon you're going to hear a lot more of 'Imagine' in the near future than Shakespeare.

      This for example:
      http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1015009

      Pay particular attention to the comment on 'Christians, Muslims and Atheist'

      "And the world will live as one"

      • Now then:

        "Imagine there's no heaven (easy…I'm an athiest too) [It's spelled atheist]
        It's easy if you try
        No hell below us (see above comment)
        Above us only sky (CO2 has poisoned the sky according to Al Gore and Emily) [I've never mentioned Al Gore, but tossing 90M tons of C02 per day into the atmosphere isn't very smart]
        Imagine all the people
        Living for today… (sounds like old age will be hard for those who don't plan for tomorrow) [Today on earth, not in a mythical heaven]

        Imagine there's no countries (my god…we'd be Americanadians!!) [No, we'd be global citizens, the same species our DNA shows we are]
        It isn't hard to do
        Nothing to kill or die for (what would we eat? What lack of passion) [No wars]
        And no religion too (still atheist)
        Imagine all the people
        Living life in peace… (that means they are sleeping) [You need a dictionary]

        • You may say I'm a dreamer (deluded…dreamer, still starts with "d") [So does Darwin]
          But I'm not the only one (I know…they're called the NDP Caucus) [ahhh the local campaign shot]
          I hope someday you'll join us (sorry, I'm not into groupthink) [LOL all you do is 'groupthink']
          And the world will be as one (yep…consistently boring) [If you find the world boring, there's no hope for you]

          Imagine no possessions (socialists already do) [outdated socialist rhetoric]
          I wonder if you can (ask Jack Layton) [local campaign shot again]
          No need for greed or hunger (yes, because "g[ood feelings" fill the belly just fine) [No, food does. Some people don't have any….but enjoy your steak]
          A brotherhood of man (sexist bastard!!) [ Standard phrase]
          Imagine all the people
          Sharing all the world… (sorry, sharing only works when someone actually produces something to BE shared. Dreamers aren't very productive) [Outdated capitalist rhetoric….and dreamers are the ones who produce ideas and inventions.]

  55. Gosh…a Coles notes on just one song already. LOL

    Hon you're going to hear a lot more of 'Imagine' in the near future than Shakespeare.

    This for example:
    http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1015009

    Pay particular attention to the comment on 'Christians, Muslims and Atheist'

    "And the world will live as one"

  56. Shakespeare was the originator of over 1700 English words. Many household words would not exist today without Shakespeare (including the term "household words"). Here are some examples. I can virtually GUARANTEE that you can't go a whole day without using a word that Shakespeare invented. Some scholars have even argued that Shakespeare "invented" WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A HUMAN BEING (see Harold Bloom's "Shakespeare: The Invention of the Human").

    Trust me on this one, Shakespeare's still hot stuff.

  57. Now then:

    "Imagine there's no heaven (easy…I'm an athiest too) [It's spelled atheist]
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us (see above comment)
    Above us only sky (CO2 has poisoned the sky according to Al Gore and Emily) [I've never mentioned Al Gore, but tossing 90M tons of C02 per day into the atmosphere isn't very smart]
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today… (sounds like old age will be hard for those who don't plan for tomorrow) [Today on earth, not in a mythical heaven]

    Imagine there's no countries (my god…we'd be Americanadians!!) [No, we'd be global citizens, the same species our DNA shows we are]
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for (what would we eat? What lack of passion) [No wars]
    And no religion too (still atheist)
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace… (that means they are sleeping) [You need a dictionary]

  58. The Beatles…..mostly famous in the 60's

    You really think so? The BEATLES???

  59. I don't know what's funnier above, Emily's apparent denial of the brilliance and influence of Shakespeare or James' apparent hatred of John Lennon (and/or peace).

  60. I don't know what's funnier above, Emily's apparent denial of the brilliance and influence of Shakespeare or James' apparent hatred of John Lennon (and/or peace).

    • Like I said…Shakespeare was hot stuff 400 years ago in England.

      He is, however, not the only playwright that ever lived, nor is England the only country.

      Nothing wrong with him…but he's just one of many.

      Canadian education was British for most of our history. You learned it well.

  61. You may say I'm a dreamer (deluded…dreamer, still starts with "d") [So does Darwin]
    But I'm not the only one (I know…they're called the NDP Caucus) [ahhh the local campaign shot]
    I hope someday you'll join us (sorry, I'm not into groupthink) [LOL all you do is 'groupthink']
    And the world will be as one (yep…consistently boring) [If you find the world boring, there's no hope for you]

    Imagine no possessions (socialists already do) [outdated socialist rhetoric]
    I wonder if you can (ask Jack Layton) [local campaign shot again]
    No need for greed or hunger (yes, because "g[ood feelings" fill the belly just fine) [No, food does. Some people don't have any….but enjoy your steak]
    A brotherhood of man (sexist bastard!!) [ Standard phrase]
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world… (sorry, sharing only works when someone actually produces something to BE shared. Dreamers aren't very productive) [Outdated capitalist rhetoric….and dreamers are the ones who produce ideas and inventions.]

  62. Actually, I'm a big fan of John Lennon.

    I just don't think his songs are a legitimate premise to run an economy.

  63. Actually, I'm a big fan of John Lennon.

    I just don't think his songs are a legitimate premise to run an economy.

    • When were Lennon's songs ever promoted as a premise to run an economy??

      See, that's a problem with your commerce degree….you see everything in terms of your limited education.

    • I just don't think his songs are a legitimate premise to run an economy.

      Oh, I don't know. I bet I could run a pretty big economy on the royalties from John Lennon's songs.

      • Personally I think James has confused Lennon with Lenin.

        I'm afraid to ask him what Marx's first name is.

        • Emily noted:
          "I'm afraid to ask him what Marx's first name is.

          Groucho.

  64. Like I said…Shakespeare was hot stuff 400 years ago in England.

    He is, however, not the only playwright that ever lived, nor is England the only country.

    Nothing wrong with him…but he's just one of many.

    Canadian education was British for most of our history. You learned it well.

  65. No, only to people with limited literary knowledge.

    And if Shakespeare was around today he wouldn't be able to speak English.

  66. When were Lennon's songs ever promoted as a premise to run an economy??

    See, that's a problem with your commerce degree….you see everything in terms of your limited education.

  67. LdKitchenersOwn wrote:
    "Trust me on this one, Shakespeare's still hot stuff. "

    T'is true.

  68. LdKitchenersOwn wrote:
    "Trust me on this one, Shakespeare's still hot stuff. "

    T'is true.

  69. Emily believes:
    "[Outdated capitalist rhetoric….and dreamers are the ones who produce ideas and inventions.] "

    Ok Emily…..dream me up a blackberry.

  70. Emily believes:
    "[Outdated capitalist rhetoric….and dreamers are the ones who produce ideas and inventions.] "

    Ok Emily…..dream me up a blackberry.

    • The Blackberry was an idea long before it was a manufactured metal and plastic product….everything around you in fact is the result of an idea.

      We went from radio to radio phones to 'beam me up Scotty'.

      You musta skipped some passages in Ayn Rand.

      • We went from radio to radio phones to 'beam me up Scotty'.

        I don't know who you've been talking to Emily, but we haven't actually gotten to the "beam me up Scotty" yet.

        • The flip phone Kirk used is available even at a grocery store these days….they're working on the teleportation. Same with the replicators. The basics for both are now available though.

          • Well, they're WORKING on teleportation in a very rudimentary sense, yes, but we're not there yet. There's still some debate as to whether or not it's even metaphysically possible.

          • No, it's not instant…anymore than the computer you're working on was instant.

            It's taken centuries to go from the abacus to the Antikythera mechanism to what you're using today.

            Teleportation is coming along much faster. And quantum makes it easier.

          • Teleportation is coming along much faster.

            Again, only if it's coming at all. As I said, physicists aren't all convinced it's even POSSIBLE.

          • S'okay….they didn't think we could fly either.

          • True, but I don't think they argued that flight was potentially a metaphysical impossibility. I mean, they could see birds flying after all.

          • Don't you wish you lived in a world where teleportation was less than a year away and Shakespeare was a useless hack nobody cared about? If you were Emily, that world could be yours by Thursday.

          • What is it with Cons and misquoting?

  71. The Blackberry was an idea long before it was a manufactured metal and plastic product….everything around you in fact is the result of an idea.

    We went from radio to radio phones to 'beam me up Scotty'.

    You musta skipped some passages in Ayn Rand.

  72. only to people with limited literary knowledge

    OK, I surrender, and I will return my M.A. in English Literature to my alma mater right away.

  73. I just don't think his songs are a legitimate premise to run an economy.

    Oh, I don't know. I bet I could run a pretty big economy on the royalties from John Lennon's songs.

  74. We went from radio to radio phones to 'beam me up Scotty'.

    I don't know who you've been talking to Emily, but we haven't actually gotten to the "beam me up Scotty" yet.

  75. Personally I think James has confused Lennon with Lenin.

    I'm afraid to ask him what Marx's first name is.

  76. The flip phone Kirk used is available even at a grocery store these days….they're working on the teleportation. Same with the replicators. The basics for both are now available though.

  77. I'll never understand why people are so concerned about what other people do with their lives.

  78. Only English lit?….see?

  79. Also, the complete works of the Beatles aren't available for $19.99. The Box Set on iTunes is $149.

  80. Well, they're WORKING on teleportation in a very rudimentary sense, yes, but we're not there yet. There's still some debate as to whether or not it's even metaphysically possible.

  81. No, it's not instant…anymore than the computer you're working on was instant.

    It's taken centuries to go from the abacus to the Antikythera mechanism to what you're using today.

    Teleportation is coming along much faster. And quantum makes it easier.

  82. It's been very entertaining to read this exchange, and I've gotten mad at each of you in turn. I'm glad you all seem to have calmed down and it feels as though you've ended up, if not agreeing, at least agreeing to disagree. I've always seen the Beatles lyrics as poetry, and the music blaring through my college dorm hallways in 1962 & 63 imprinted on me for the rest of my life. Music is a thing of emotion, not to be completely explained or understood. At the time I met my wife-to-be during those years, the words, "will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four," well of course the answer was, "Of course!" But alas the answer turned out to be, "No." and we split only seven years later leaving me with two sons who are now in their forties. My ex wife passed away 12 years ago. But I cannot hear that song without the pangs of regret and the yearning for what was and what might have been.

    Words put together by poets, and Shakespeare was a poet as were Lennon and McCartney, and yes, I do believe they might all be remembered in a hundred years. Sorry, I lost track of that sentence … words put together by poets can make extraordinary evocative sense: Keats referred to, "Ditties of no tone." Who could have thought of that, looking at an old grecian urn? Or who could have come up with Pope's phrase, "Damn with faint praise." How true – I've used that quote many times. Poets can capture the spirit of an age. Shakespeare captured his, and I'm sure he didn't know it. The Beatles have probably captured the spirit of my age. Eleanor Rigby … "waits in the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door, who is it for? …" Don't you find that sad with a poignance that pierces you like a needle? That is no less affecting than, "… for who would fardels bear if he might his quietus make with a bare bodkin …" (that's from memory, sorry if I misquote).

    It shouldn't be about Shakespeare OR Beatles, but both.

  83. It's been very entertaining to read this exchange, and I've gotten mad at each of you in turn. I'm glad you all seem to have calmed down and it feels as though you've ended up, if not agreeing, at least agreeing to disagree. I've always seen the Beatles lyrics as poetry, and the music blaring through my college dorm hallways in 1962 & 63 imprinted on me for the rest of my life. Music is a thing of emotion, not to be completely explained or understood. At the time I met my wife-to-be during those years, the words, "will you still need me, will you still feed me, when I'm sixty-four," well of course the answer was, "Of course!" But alas the answer turned out to be, "No." and we split only seven years later leaving me with two sons who are now in their forties. My ex wife passed away 12 years ago. But I cannot hear that song without the pangs of regret and the yearning for what was and what might have been.

    Words put together by poets, and Shakespeare was a poet as were Lennon and McCartney, and yes, I do believe they might all be remembered in a hundred years. Sorry, I lost track of that sentence … words put together by poets can make extraordinary evocative sense: Keats referred to, "Ditties of no tone." Who could have thought of that, looking at an old grecian urn? Or who could have come up with Pope's phrase, "Damn with faint praise." How true – I've used that quote many times. Poets can capture the spirit of an age. Shakespeare captured his, and I'm sure he didn't know it. The Beatles have probably captured the spirit of my age. Eleanor Rigby … "waits in the window, wearing the face that she keeps in a jar by the door, who is it for? …" Don't you find that sad with a poignance that pierces you like a needle? That is no less affecting than, "… for who would fardels bear if he might his quietus make with a bare bodkin …" (that's from memory, sorry if I misquote).

    It shouldn't be about Shakespeare OR Beatles, but both.

    • Hey nonny nonny, yeah yeah yeah.

    • Yes, it's not either/or….it's both

      As I said at the beginning, we study Shakespeare….so studying the Beatles is no different.

      Just a different era

      • Didn't you just say that you think we spend too much time on that "relic" Shakespeare?

        • Just imagine when UBC puts out degrees in Beachcomberology, then Emily can complain we spend too much time on that relic Relic.

        • Yes, in high school we spent ages on Shakespeare. Very little time on important people from the past and their contributions….not to mention there were lots of other writers.

  84. Hey nonny nonny, yeah yeah yeah.

  85. Yes, it's not either/or….it's both

    As I said at the beginning, we study Shakespeare….so studying the Beatles is no different.

    Just a different era

  86. I'm glad you find the lyrics of "Imagine" profound. I find them platitudinous and dull.

  87. Well, that's your problem, not mine.

  88. and in the end
    the love you take
    is equal to the love
    you make

    Shakespeare? No. But I've never forgotten it and likely never will.

  89. While I was still involved in academia, the music department where I taught had a job search for a musicologist. We interviewed a young woman whose specialty was Bjork. Her Ph.D. dissertation was on Bjork's album covers. Not even the music. Just the album covers. I was on the search committee and the only voice of reason. She was hired despite my protests. (Our chair felt she would bring "excitement" to the department.) I left the field soon after.

    My point is, there are people out there with more useless specialties than the Beatles.

  90. Also, says my friend the amateur Beatles-ologist, the seminal boy band.

  91. Teleportation is coming along much faster.

    Again, only if it's coming at all. As I said, physicists aren't all convinced it's even POSSIBLE.

  92. Didn't you just say that you think we spend too much time on that "relic" Shakespeare?

  93. Of course! If I'd studied French Literature as well, then I'd totally understand that Shakespeare is no longer worth wasting so much time on!

  94. French literature is hurt by the lack of full length works. French authors were no more likely to say in exasperation "I give up" than authors of other languages, but by nature of being French they actually did.

  95. Don't you wish you lived in a world where teleportation was less than a year away and Shakespeare was a useless hack nobody cared about? If you were Emily, that world could be yours by Thursday.

  96. Just imagine when UBC puts out degrees in Beachcomberology, then Emily can complain we spend too much time on that relic Relic.

  97. If you'd studied Comparative Literature you'd know that, yes.

  98. Hmmm racist ignorance….there's a start.

  99. S'okay….they didn't think we could fly either.

  100. What is it with Cons and misquoting?

  101. Yes, in high school we spent ages on Shakespeare. Very little time on important people from the past and their contributions….not to mention there were lots of other writers.

  102. That's the extent of your cultural knowledge eh?

  103. Since we're on the subject of denigrating the learning of others, I've always been of the opinion that a business school has no place whatsoever on a university campus.

  104. If you know of any sodomistic 18th century authors from Argentina who have a character named Relic you'd rather use to make the joke, go right ahead.

  105. If you know of any sodomistic 18th century authors from Argentina who have a character named Relic you'd rather use to make the joke, go right ahead.

    • You'd have been better off not to try….Cons have no sense of humour.

  106. My point is, there are people out there with more useless specialties than the Beatles.

    Isn't your story kind of evidence that it WASN'T a useless degree? After all, she got the job! ;-)

  107. LdKitchersOwn wrote:
    "I'll never understand why people are so concerned about what other people do with their lives"

    I don't care what other people do……as long as I don't have to pay for it.

  108. Yes, how ignorant not to know anything about French history, and to rely on equally ignorant sites.

  109. You'd have been better off not to try….Cons have no sense of humour.

  110. Well, if your definition of "useful" work includes the task of awarding degrees to pothead students that can glorify the album covers of second-rate pop musicians, then I guess you're right.

  111. Well, if your definition of "useful" work includes the task of awarding degrees to pothead students that can glorify the album covers of second-rate pop musicians, then I guess you're right.

    • What amazes me is that nobody knows what a PhD dissertation is.

      Not much education here I see.

      • I take it that Guy understands what a dissertation is, I think he just feels that this particular dissertation should have been indefensible. I'm presuming he read the dissertation before coming to that conclusion, but I could be giving him too much credit.

    • Ahhh, I see, so you're saying that the WORK is useless, not the degree. That's different then. Her DEGREE (/specialty) was useful then, in that it got her a job as a professor, your point is simply that her job as a professor is useless, or at least that it's useless if she awards degrees to her students similar to the degree that was awarded to her.

      Fair enough, I suppose. Still, she got the job, so her specialty certainly wasn't "useless" from her perspective.

      • OK, like I said, if that's your perspective then you're right. She did get a job as a result of her specialty. We can pat her on the back and tell her good for you, your specialty got you a job at an institution that appreciates the work you've put into it. I'll make that distinction with you; however, I still hold that both the degree and the job have little social validity. Her job waters down the meaning of the word "musicologist" by recognizing an aspect of popular music whose merit (in an institution of higher learning) is questionable.

        • her job waters down the meaning of the word 'musicologist'

          Oh come on, now you're just being silly! ;-) (LOL, j/k).

          All kidding aside, I'd keep in mind that while you see her "useless" degree as demeaning the field of musicology, many (MANY) people around here would view the ENTIRE FIELD OF MUSICOLOGY to be "useless".

  112. What amazes me is that nobody knows what a PhD dissertation is.

    Not much education here I see.

  113. Ahhh, I see, so you're saying that the WORK is useless, not the degree. That's different then. Her DEGREE (/specialty) was useful then, in that it got her a job as a professor, your point is simply that her job as a professor is useless, or at least that it's useless if she awards degrees to her students similar to the degree that was awarded to her.

    Fair enough, I suppose. Still, she got the job, so her specialty certainly wasn't "useless" from her perspective.

  114. I take it that Guy understands what a dissertation is, I think he just feels that this particular dissertation should have been indefensible. I'm presuming he read the dissertation before coming to that conclusion, but I could be giving him too much credit.

  115. Finance degree indeed…..

  116. OK, like I said, if that's your perspective then you're right. She did get a job as a result of her specialty. We can pat her on the back and tell her good for you, your specialty got you a job at an institution that appreciates the work you've put into it. I'll make that distinction with you; however, I still hold that both the degree and the job have little social validity. Her job waters down the meaning of the word "musicologist" by recognizing an aspect of popular music whose merit (in an institution of higher learning) is questionable.

  117. Poopypants wrote:

    “Since we’re on the subject of denigrating the learning of others, I’ve always been of the opinion that a business school has no place whatsoever on a university campus.”

    I agree Poopypants…surrounding the small group of students who can actually use a spreadsheet, add or subtract, or create a business plan, with a group of “artsy” students who spend all day texting on devices they can neither comprehend nor devise….is simply cruel.

    Emily wrote:

    “The Blackberry was an idea long before it was a manufactured metal and plastic product….everything around you in fact is the result of an idea. ”

    Creator of the Blackberry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Balsillie

    Hmm…don’t see Irish Short stories or Women’s studies there?

  118. Poopypants wrote:
    “Since we’re on the subject of denigrating the learning of others, I’ve always been of the opinion that a business school has no place whatsoever on a university campus.”

    I agree Poopypants…surrounding the small group of students who can actually use a spreadsheet, add or subtract, or create a business plan, with a group of “artsy” students who spend all day texting on devices they can neither comprehend nor devise….is simply cruel.

    Emily wrote:
    “The Blackberry was an idea long before it was a manufactured metal and plastic product….everything around you in fact is the result of an idea. ”

    Creator of the Blackberry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Balsillie

    Hmm…don’t see Irish Short stories or Women’s studies there?

    • I wouldn't use Balsillie in this context as "creator of the Blackberry". Balsillie is more the business side of the company, the accountant (NOT meant pejoratively). He's co-CEO of the company RIM, but somebody else (I'm guessing mostly Lazaridis) gets credit for "creating the Blackberry"

      • LdKitchersOwn :

        Do you think the "somebody else" who created the Blackberry had a degree in Irish short stores or Women's studies?

        Did he "dream" up the blackberry…..or did he actually have to do some work?

        Please provide Emily with your response.

  119. Emily the Dreamer goes on:

    “Teleportation is coming along much faster. And quantum makes it easier.”

    Quantum of course, in Emily’s case…….being the name she has given her metallic wide-brimmed cranium cover.

    Ok, Emily…..now please go back and read your extensive Library. And while you’re at it, don’t thumb your nose at the Green Eggs and Ham any longer………..(Finish the book and you’ll see what I’m getting at)

  120. Emily the Dreamer goes on:
    “Teleportation is coming along much faster. And quantum makes it easier.”

    Quantum of course, in Emily’s case…….being the name she has given her metallic wide-brimmed cranium cover.

    Ok, Emily…..now please go back and read your extensive Library. And while you’re at it, don’t thumb your nose at the Green Eggs and Ham any longer………..(Finish the book and you’ll see what I’m getting at)

  121. Teleportation:

    By the way Emily, you are aware that the teleportation you dream of is not even closely related to reality, correct?

    All we've been able to do so far….is create a near identical copy of an atom from one region to another. It is not like taking an apple from your desk and transporting it to your table. It doesn't work that way.

    But….keep dreaming. I"m sure one day you'll "will" it if you dream enough.

    Of course….the real work is being done by people with real degrees in math, science, and physics. That sort of boring stuff.

    (and I daresay…those guys probably know more about William Shakespeare, than they do about John lennon.)

  122. Teleportation:

    By the way Emily, you are aware that the teleportation you dream of is not even closely related to reality, correct?

    All we've been able to do so far….is create a near identical copy of an atom from one region to another. It is not like taking an apple from your desk and transporting it to your table. It doesn't work that way.

    But….keep dreaming. I"m sure one day you'll "will" it if you dream enough.

    Of course….the real work is being done by people with real degrees in math, science, and physics. That sort of boring stuff.

    (and I daresay…those guys probably know more about William Shakespeare, than they do about John lennon.)

  123. Part of Finance Mike T….is knowing how to budget and get the best deals.

    Paying less for the same item….is just good business sense.

  124. Emily asked:
    "So you're a glorified bookeeper eh? A bean-counter…a Bob Cratchit of your time…well, that's nice. "

    Actually, Emily….it really is. YOu can't imagine the freedom that comes with financial independence. (And I'm sure you never will)

    She goes on:
    "If you had some other kind of degree, you'd know that Irish literature is a vast field, and graduates have always found jobs."

    Actually, Emily, I choose "Irish short stores" for a reason. I know someone who works at a cabinet making shop…and that's what his degree is in. He took it at University because he knew it would be easy. No math, no science….and no requirement for original thought. No worries though, he does good honest work…and who knows, maybe he dreams of Ireland during his breaks.

  125. Emily goes on:
    "And women's studies covers all of history, not just press clippings from the past 30 years. They too manage to get jobs"

    I agree Emily, they do get jobs. Some get jobs in retail, some get jobs in secretarial work, but of course, the best job for that degree is a Government Job under "Equity Employment" etc..etc……
    Now if only there was an actual company that specialized in women's studies. Oh wait…there is. It's called COSMOPOLITAN.

  126. EMily's idiocy continues:
    "Of course if you ONLY want to get a job, I guess you should go to trade school….and skip any thought of being educated about the world you live in."

    I don't need to go to trade school. I already know how to drywall, do electrical, paint, woodwork/cabinet building, plumbing…etc..etc. Anyone guy who owns a house should know these things. You seem to be of the mind that knowing how to swing a hammer or work power tools means you are somehow less intelligent? Hmmm…you are definitely a LIBERAL. The arrogance shines through.

    by the way Emily……do you kill your own spiders?

  127. Emily noted:
    "I'm afraid to ask him what Marx's first name is.

    Groucho.

  128. her job waters down the meaning of the word 'musicologist'

    Oh come on, now you're just being silly! ;-) (LOL, j/k).

    All kidding aside, I'd keep in mind that while you see her "useless" degree as demeaning the field of musicology, many (MANY) people around here would view the ENTIRE FIELD OF MUSICOLOGY to be "useless".

  129. I wouldn't use Balsillie in this context as "creator of the Blackberry". Balsillie is more the business side of the company, the accountant (NOT meant pejoratively). He's co-CEO of the company RIM, but somebody else (I'm guessing mostly Lazaridis) gets credit for "creating the Blackberry"

  130. True, but I don't think they argued that flight was potentially a metaphysical impossibility. I mean, they could see birds flying after all.

  131. Of course the Beatles hit it big here in 1962. I was 12 and had a penpal who lived in Liverpool. She had just written to tell me that her mum was taking her to see a "fab new group called the Beatties", or so it looked in her handwriting. I knew nothing about them — and it seemed that it was a week later that I Wanna Hold Your Hand had struck – and I had Beatles pictures covering my bedroom walls. We had 45s, we danced, we had a wonderful time.

    Screw PhDs – I know what Paul McCartney's teeth looked like.

  132. Of course the Beatles hit it big here in 1962. I was 12 and had a penpal who lived in Liverpool. She had just written to tell me that her mum was taking her to see a "fab new group called the Beatties", or so it looked in her handwriting. I knew nothing about them — and it seemed that it was a week later that I Wanna Hold Your Hand had struck – and I had Beatles pictures covering my bedroom walls. We had 45s, we danced, we had a wonderful time.

    Screw PhDs – I know what Paul McCartney's teeth looked like.

  133. LdKitchersOwn :

    Do you think the "somebody else" who created the Blackberry had a degree in Irish short stores or Women's studies?

    Did he "dream" up the blackberry…..or did he actually have to do some work?

    Please provide Emily with your response.

Sign in to comment.