Merit: the best and only way to decide who gets into university

We find the trend toward race-based admissions policies in some U.S. schools to be deplorable

Merit: the best and only way to decide who gets into university

Photograph by Colin O'Connor

Maclean’s annual University Rankings issue is our most popular and most discussed magazine of the year. The 2010 edition, released two weeks ago, was no exception. Alongside our comprehensive rankings of Canadian schools, we also tackled the biggest issues facing today’s university students. There were stories dealing with school stress, problem roommates, difficult school choices and sex. And when students told us race is becoming a conversation on Canadian campuses, we took a closer look at that as well.

Our reporters Stephanie Findlay and Nicholas Köhler spoke to university students, professors and administrators about campus racial balance and its implications. The resulting story was titled: ”‘Too Asian?’: a term used in the U.S. to talk about racial imbalance at Ivy League schools is now being whispered on Canadian campuses—by everyone but the students themselves, who speak out loud and clear.”

The article has generated a great deal of response, a representative sample of which is included in this week’s Letters (page six). Some of the comments we have seen on the Internet and in other media have suggested that by publishing this article, Maclean’s views Canadian universities as “Too Asian,” or that we hold a negative view of Asian students.

Nothing could be further from the truth. As our story relates, the phrase “Too Asian?” is a direct quote from the title of a panel discussion at the 2006 meeting of the National Association for College Admission Counseling where experts examined the growing tendency among U.S. university admission officers to view Asian applicants as a homogenous group. The evidence suggests some of the most prestigious schools in the U.S. have abandoned merit as the basis for admission for more racially significant—and racist—criteria.

We find the trend toward race-based admission policies in some American schools deplorable, as do many of our readers. Our article notes that Canadian universities select students regardless of race or creed. That, in our view, is the best and only acceptable approach: merit should be the sole criteria for entrance to higher education in Canada, and universities should always give preference to our best and brightest regardless of cultural background. This position was stated clearly in the article: “Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so,” reporters Findlay and Köhler wrote.

Through hard work, talent and ambition, Asian students have been highly successful in earning places in Canada’s institutions of higher learning. They, like all of our high achievers, deserve respect and admiration. Every one of them is a source of pride to their fellow Canadians.

One final note about the headline. Although the phrase “Too Asian?” was a question and, again, a quotation from an authoritative source, it upset many people. We expected that it would be provocative, but we did not intend to cause offence.




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Merit: the best and only way to decide who gets into university

  1. Too many foreigners allowed into our Universities when our own kids cannot get entry. Now Dalton McGuinty wants to spend millions of tax dollars bringing in Students from China and paying for the whole shot.
    What about our own Canadian kids who can't afford to go to University.

    • Do you know foreign students pay 2 or 3 times tuition and it's an income source for Canadian universities?
      I would suggest you start to save money for your own kids if you want them to go to university.
      I agree every Canadian kids should have equal right to go to university and university should admit students based on merit instead of race.
      I wonder which US university claims they admit students base on RACE?

      • Not when the Ontario govt has committed to spending 40,000 per foreign (chinese) student. That's a reverse head tax.

        • Where did you get the information?
          If you check the website of any university, foreign students pay higher tuition. Normally two times what a Canadian pays.

      • No US university will admit to discriminating against Asians, yet it's the worst kept secret in the biz. In fact when California voters passed a law prohibiting any discrimination, the proportion of Asian students in the UC system soared the next year. I wonder why's that?

        • That means tax payers in US agreed universities should not admit students based on RACE.

      • What exactly is your point? Who cares if the university is taking in thousands of dollars to subsidize overpaid board members? Greed is a highly objectionable trait.

        The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Canadian universities should be filled to the brim with Canadian students, and not the likes of Chinese and Indian foreigners. I don't care how brilliant these people are; we shouldn't be denying students thr right to attend university if we can afford not to do so. The rule should be:

        At most, the very least foreigners. At least, the highest amount of Canadians.

        • Do you mean white=Canadian?

          • No Helen. I mean Canadian Kids whether you be of Chinese, Japanese, German, Indian, Pakistani descent – Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic
            KEY WORD IS CANADIAN CITIZEN.

          • Hi, Bill,
            How do you know the majority of university students are foreign students?
            A lot of immigrants have decent jobs with the education from original country. Everyone pay tax as long as they work in Canada. Their children deserve to have equal rights to study at a Canadian University.
            Foreign undergraduate students don't get financial assistant from the government. For graduate students, they do research for the university.
            Life isn't easy for everyone. Immigrants signed an agreement with the government that no welfare will be allowed if they couldn't find a job. They come to work and pay tax.

          • Helen. I am not talking about immigrants and their children. They are Canadian and deserve every right and freedom that all Canadians have. Most immigrants I see are hard working people many of who open up businesses and contribute to Society. My main complaint is what McGuinty is proposing. $40,000 of Ontario Tax dollars per Chinese Student from Mainland China. That money would be better spent helping Canadian Students regardless of their roots or culture regardless of how long they have been in this country.

          • If you don't agree with McGuinty, you need to talk to him directly.
            Maclean is proposing University to admit students based on RACE. I am glad you don't agree with them.
            Actually education is a long term investment. You will be proud of your child being independent and pay for his own tuition to go to university. He will benefit from university education in the long run. don't worry too much.

          • Helen. I don't agree with Dalton McGuinty on most topics and would love to have an audience with him and tell him what I think of him and his policies. It's not that I am opposed to Chinese Students getting the money it's anyone other than Ontario Taxpayers Kids. I don't care what country these kids are from, France, Germany, Italy, Swiss or any European country, they should not get a free education courtesy of Ontario taxpayers. I don't care if they took that money and gave it to a Chinese Canadian, Scottish Canadian, German Canadian, Indian Canadian etc….. Just as long as it is given to a Canadian, preferably an Ontarian.
            You are right I am proud of my son and what he has done and what he has paid for himself but he now faces years of paying off student loans.
            I take my hat off to these exceptionally smart Chinese students but in my opinion why doesn't the Chinese Government sponsor them.

          • US top universities have granted more scholarship to foreign students. US also did a good job to keep the students after their graduation. These students have helped US to compete with all the rest in the world.
            Politicians are elected by tax payers. They are trying to do what's the best for Canada.
            He can explain this better to you

          • Helen. if the Universities want to give a scholarship to a foreign student that's great as long as it comes out of the Universities funds and high profits and not the Ontario Treasury where our tax money is kept.

          • Bill, the money that's going to foreign students is for Ph.D's. We're not subsidising their education, we're trying to attract them here, because any Ph.D that's actually worth anything gets their education for FREE.

            It doesn't matter if they go to Canada or not, they will get a free education regardless of what country they go to! What Ontario's trying to do, is to attract Ph.D's because the thinking goes, if they can get someone to study here, they can most likely get them to move here.

            So, we can try and attract the world's best and brightest, which helps foster innovation in Canada, or do nothing and let other countries take credit for discoveries which could be Canadian.

          • This is such a profoundly nationalist statement. I'm quite disgusted

            Who CARES what country takes credit for it? Does it matter that Eistein was a German, of Jewish descent, turned American? Does it matter that the Wright Brothers were American? Do you still not use the Airplane regardless? Who CARES if Thomas Edison was an American, you still use the lightbulb he invented! Who cares if Henry Ford was an American? You still drive cars, don't you?

            Why should it matter who or what country discovers something, so long as it benefits humanity as a whole? It's thinking like yours that will doom the human race–we should be collaborating to create more resources, not competing to earn the very last penny.

          • I care.. because typically the country that takes credit for something does so because it's the first to capitalize on it, while the other countries are left paying to obtain it.

          • The majority of students of Asian descent are Canadian. That's what's so off about the perception. Foreign students are typically capped at 10% at a school – and that includes Americans, French, Saudis and Mexican among other nationalities.
            http://www.atlas.iienetwork.org/?p=48032

          • I don't have a problem with that in the least. Asian Canadians. My only point was the overly generous offer McGuinty made to China to have Chinese Students from China come to Canadian Universities on our dime.
            All I am saying is that money could or should be given to Canadian Citizens whether they be White, Black, Asian, Arab etc.. that may need assistance with University funds.

          • I'm not familiar with the McGuinty offer, but i do know universities (in any country) try to invite the brightest international minds to universities with scholarships and grants. That's a universal practice to attract the best researchers to your school, so your school benefits. That's no different than recruiting a football player, for example, so your team wins, but more for intellectual/research gains.

          • As odd as this may sound. Dalton is buying political favoritism from Mainland China with you tax money.

      • This is not about income. it's about education and a lot of CANADIAN families do not have the money to put their kids through University. I would have liked to have saved money to put my kids through university but my income is at the low end of the scale living on a Military disability pension.
        My son had to borrow thousands of dollars to put himself through University. He did not get any handouts from McGuinty like foreign Chinese students are about to get. Charity begins at home. It pi$$es me off when I see certain groups getting everything for free and the rest of us have to pay for it.

        • It seems that you've misunderstood the foreign scholarship program. The intent of McGuinty providing these scholarships to foreign PhD students is to attract the best and brightest to Ontario schools. These are students who already have their pick from the best schools all over the world, but who might be wooed to Ontario because of the scholarships. Having these students in our schools , in turn, will help to promote the image of Ontario universities abroad, helping to continue attracting the brightest talent and more importantly, funding.

          Without this funding, there's no way your son would be able to get even his undergraduate degree at the low tuition fees that he likely paid. On top of that, universities already highly-subsidized by the governments (and so are government-funded student loan programs), so when you say that your son did not receive any "handouts from the government," that is also incorrect.

          • Student loans are not a handout. It is a low interest loan that has to be paid back regardless. Ask any kid who is now paying it back. One big chunk of change off their pay cheque.
            The way I see it is that these Non-Canadian Students regardless of how smart and wonderful they are, are taking up the spot that a Canadian Student should have even though he or she may not be as smart as the foreign kid.

            LOW TUITION FEES….ARE YOU SERIOUS?????

          • Yes, low tuition fees. The average tuition fee for a 4-year university student in Ontario (according to Stats Can) is about $4,500 a year. While this is one of the higher tuition rates in Canada (not the highest – that honour goes to Nova Scotia, where the average tuition is about $5,800 a year), that is explained simply by the fact that the bulk of the country's top schools are in Ontario.

            Compare that $4,500 tuition to the average tuition for a U.S. student (average of both public and private schools is just under $12,000). At a public university, the average student would have to pay close to $7,000 for tuition, and over $28,000 for a private university. This is based on numbers from the U.S. Department of Education.

            Also, as someone who's just put myself through a Master's program using student loans, I am very familiar with the concept of student loans, thanks. And because I've used them, I am very aware of the many benefits the government offers me through them (debt forgiveness for some, low interest, and interest-free periods). Try asking for any of that from a bank.

          • Stats Canada is way off the mark as usual. My son's tuition was well over $4500 not to mention his rent and other living expenses. Probably cost him close to $18,000 to $20,000 a year.
            You are quite right, a Student Loan is a generous loan from the Government just as you described, but bottom line is, it is still a loan that you have to pay back with interest, albeit not as much as a bank.
            My point is why should Ontario Tax dollars fund Non Canadian students regardless of where they are from just because they are smart. That is just plain wrong using our taxes to educate a foreign student.
            There are enough Ontario students who need a spot in the University and if Ontario wants to spend 40 grand on a student then spend it on our own kids.

          • Yes, of course, Stats Can – trained, professional statisticians who survey hundreds of thousands of Canadians and their data in a thorough, scientific manner are "off the mark," as usual. And your anecdotal experience based on circumstantial evidence is fact. RIght.

            If you'd read carefully, you would have seen that the Stats Can numbers are for average tuition. An 'average' means that some people's tuition will be more, and some people's will be less. And also, as I wrote, Stats Can numbers are based on the price of tuition only. Living expenses you'd have to pay regardless of whether you're in school or not and irrelevant to the point at hand.

            And to your point of why tax dollars should fund non-Canadian students, it's because these tax dollars are being spent as an investment to the future of our universities. Brighter students equals a better reputation for our schools equals more funding.

            Sure, the government could, as you suggest, simply use our money to create spaces and pay for the education of inferior students. But this would be a) an incredibly stupid investment by means of discouraging future funding and b) degrade the quality of our schools. A university's reputation is based on the quality of its students. What you are suggesting is that we should deteriorate the quality of our schools by accepting inferior students as some kind of a protectionist measure. I find this offensive. Oh, and your suggestion also runs completely contrary to the fundamental values of our society: meritocracy.

            I understand your concerns about low-income individuals and their access to education. But there are already provisions in place for lower-income, outstanding students. That's what scholarships and bursaries are there for. As for anyone else who doesn't quite meet that mark, to be perfectly frank, it is not the job of a government to pay for the education of mediocre students. They have access to student loans and yes, those students will have to pay the loans off. Nobody is entitled a free ride. At least, unless (like these foreign PhD students have with their outstanding credentials) they've earned it.

          • Well Guest no point in arguing with you as you have your opinion and I have mine.

            "Nobody is entitled a free ride. At least, unless (like these foreign PhD students have with their outstanding credentials) they've earned it."

            EARNED IT. Yeah I will go along with that but why should the Ontario Government pay for it with our tax dollars. Let the Chinese Government pay for it.

          • This has been repeated so many times but apparently you're not getting the point. Even if the Chinese Government pays for their education (or any of the government from the students' country of origin), Canada will still attempt to ATTRACT the brightest students here with the promise of money. Just as the students are competing with each other for financial assistance, each university and country is competing with each other for the best students, in the WORLD. Since these are PhD students and will be doing research for the better part of their studies, this will all come back to benefit CANADIANS at the end.

          • If you are not smart enough to make it into university, then try college. Universities have to admit students on the basis of their ability not because they are simply Canadian. If you are not smart enough to be admitted to a university it is not because foreign students have taken all the spots, it is because you are simply not suited for that particular university or faculty.

          • "If you are not smart enough to make it into university, then try college."

            Not smart enough? Whether you go to college or university has nothing to do with how "smart" you are. Both types of schooling incorporate different learning styles (theoretical vs practical), that is all, and I find that comment very offensive. I attended 3 years of college and graduated with two diplomas myself, and throughout that program I was in class with several university grads, including an Economics major, Accounting major and Kinesology major, who, as I said, all graduated, but could not find a job, so they ended up in college.

        • Another small, but significant point is that the foreign scholarships are going towards PhD students, and not undergraduate students. So technically, unless your son is in graduate studies, means that these foreign students are not in any kind of competition for either admission or scholarship funds with your son specifically.

          Also, if you look into almost any PhD program at any university, you'll see that those students who are admitted into the PhD programs will almost always receive a good amount in scholarship funds. Funding is built into graduate programs at most universities so that grad students (both foreign and domestic) rarely have to pay the full amount of tuition themselves. So this really isn't the blatant preferential treatment you're alleging.

          • Again my point is that Ontario Tax dollars should not be spent on Foreign Students. If they come to Canadian Universities then they should pay their own way 100%.

          • A foreign PhD student might have world-class knowledge on cancer research. That's one reason why a foreign student would be invited into a Canadian university. If we were to ban foreign students, we'd also be banning world class intellectual capital – how would Canada benefit from that? You would also need to extend your philosophy to world-class professors….if you look at the departments of universities there's likely a higher percentage of world-class professors – foreigners – than what you might see in students.

        • How many scholarships and bursaries did your son apply for per year while he was in university?

          • Marion. I really don't know. Just know he ended up borrowing quite a bit from Student Loans. He was not a party animal and was quite frugal with his expenses.

      • It's true that foreign students pay more in tuition but that only equals what universities get from domestic students after you add government subsidies. Foreign students consume the full amount of value that they pay in tuition fees, it is not as though they subsidize anyone elses education. Foreign students actually cost our public purse more money because often they use their status as students to become landed immigrants and then their fees drop down to domestic levels. At that point, they're getting funded by the tax payer but have the advantage that their parents never paid a dime in taxes so they become a drain on the system. There is a net financial loss to foreign students for the public purse, they do not subsidize the education of domestic students.

        • Foreign students are a sought-after source of income for universities that take in more students every year (this can mean accepting students with lower grades), this is simply a reality. Most of them do not seek landed immigrant status, but rather return to their lives in their home countries. (of course, the claim that landed immigrants are "a drain on the system" is so plainly ridiculous that it does not warrant much reply)

        • Are u stupid? the international students could only apply for skilled immigrants after they graduated from the university and worked for one full year.

    • What about Canadians who happen to have yellow skin and speak a sing-song language? Are they "foreigners"?

      • Ethan,
        Let first nation answers this question.
        We are all foreigners.

      • Only if they can't speak the language of the lectures and then expect the class to stop and explain it to them. I am sick of working my A$$ off to get the money to pay for school and keep my grades up and then have to sit through a lecture that has to be tailored to those who don't understand the language. If you are coming here to learn please learn the language first!!
        And yes there are 'Canadians' that fit this descrption and no not just asians

    • Why don't white people go back to Europe? Too many white people in Canada!

      • Who would pay your welfare then?

        • Jerk! Whom do you pay welfare for ? Not chinese! They work harder than you do, they pay tax dollars as you do or more than you do.
          They buy houses to stimulate the economy during the recession last year.
          U pay the welfare for the refugees not the skilled immigrants and business immigrants from China.
          U think China is poor than you? U need some updates

    • Does it matter, everyone deserves a chance at university, you can't say that foreigners shouldn't be allowed, if they can do it then do it

      • I agree 100%. If they can do it then do it and PAY for it themselves or have their Government who will benefit the most pay for it.

    • Billy, you are bang on. We have great students who can't get into our Med schools because we bring in foreign students before allowing our own the opportunity. Then we have the nerve to cry about our shortage of doctors. We have become a gutless society that can't stand up for our own. Enough is enough. Maybe we need the likes of Mayor elect Ford to run our universities

      • While i've always sympathized with low-income families and military families, i also know universities are academically more enriched with Foreign Students – which include international researchers who help solve the world's toughest problems in medical research and other fields (the cure for cancer depends on this). That's why professors are also from all over the world. If you look at PhD programs, most professors will tell you, it's better to go to a foreign place. There's a reason for that – to challenge the intellect further. Foreign students (who pay 2-3x the tuition) seldom take up more than 10% of a university (and that includes PhD/Masters students and "world-class" researchers). While i agree low-income families need a boost, the question of foreign students is deeper than how many spots they take up in university. It impacts how good a university is.

      • JPA I would like to just point out that Med school does not allow foreign students to enroll. In Canada the student MUST be a Canadian to even consider going into Med school that goes with Pharmacy, Dentistry, and all the high-profile careers out there. Also I'm currently a Canadian student in U of M and 100% students in Med school are Canadian and mostly "white" so I don't understand why you and some other folks are complaining about foreign student s and getting into Med schools because they CAN"T! Candian university system does not allow them to!

        • You might be right about that. Until 1947, Chinese born in Canada were not allowed to be Canadian or vote. That barred them from professions such as medicine, accounting, dentistry and a few other fields due to a lack of Canadian citizenship.

      • Mayor Ford is not xenophobic. Don't drag his name here.

    • Hello, do you people not understand that when non-citizens attend Canadian university they pay the full cost and is not under direct subsidy of the government? And hello, unless you've been living under a rock, there is a "global" economy now and having non-Canadians prepares our youth for the reality of success by learning foreign cultures that they will eventually be working with to succeed.

    • Hi Billy, some points for you to note: 1) international students is a revenue sources for Canadaian universities. They paid more than local Canadian students so it is not like what you said "the Canadian government is using millions of tax dollar bringing in students from China and paying for the whole shot". 2) Canada is a multi-cultural soiety made of immigrants from all over the world. Many of the Asian faces in universities are second-generation of the immigrants and note that they consider themselves as Canadian as you are!

    • Are u stupid? Do u research! The government decided to promote canadian schools in China since they charge double or triple tuition fees for international students for college and universities. They also charge $13000 per school year for international students take public high school here. The government make this decision since they want the money from the Chinese parents!
      Are u stupid? look at the chinese people around you, they work hard and pay tax dollars for lots of you who only knows complain and taking welfare!
      Go home and do your study! What are your universities and who are "our" kids? You mean aboriginal kids? or your kids who can't compete!

      • I'm sorry, man, but when you write 'Are U Stupid?', you look stupid. Er, sorry — U look stupid.

    • International students work very hard to acheive their high standards, and it is known that asians have high expectations. Why are you complaining if your Canadian kids cannot intellectually overcome these international students? I mean, everyone has equal rights to choose which university to go to and it is majorly up to them to achieve such accomplishments.

    • Billy M.,

      Your original statement makes you sound like a complete, racist ass. I am was born in CANADA and I am of Asian descent. I went to U of T and paid my OWN tuition with the jobs I had and STILL was able to perform well academically. Many people are able to do the same thing but perhaps don't want to put in the hard work. For all those people out there who seem to think the universities are "too Asian", then perhaps everyone else should just study and work harder. Culturally, Asian families teach their children to work hard and as a result, Asian students now seem to be dominating the universities.

      At the risk of sound like a complete racist ass myself, I honestly believe that in general, Asian parents focus a lot more on hard work and high grades than non-Asian families. Again, this is a generalization and not true of all Asian and non-Asian families.

    • If you want your kid to go to university, save up the money to do so. Don't go around blaming Asian parents for saving up money so that their kids can have a successful future. These 'foreigners' you talk about are no smarter than you or your kids. They are just willing to sacrifice the first 20-30 years of their life to live well for the rest of the 30+ years they will live.

    • Damn straight brother! White people for the white man's land! BLACK POWER!

    • Ask your kids to study well. It is a competitive world out there. Real world is survival of the fittest. Universities are not for air heads.

    • your kids are not entitled to anything they do not work for chucky;stop your whining and get your kids to put down the pot and hit the books loser.

    • Why is everyone giving this comment a thumbs down??? This only makes sense to me. When there are so many Canadian kids that do not have the opportunity to go to university , why on earth would we be bringing in Chinese kids?? Makes no sense at all to me.We need to start worrying a bit more about looking after our fellow Canadians and less about offending others

      • I'm going to assume that by "Canadian kids that do not have the opportunity to go to university", you mean the ones that aren't able to because of financial reasons, because universities have admission standards, the students who can't meet those standards don't get to go, plain and simple. As for the students who can't go to university because of the money, well if they study hard they can usually get scholarships or bursaries (which are awarded based on your financial state). The universities here in Canada work to make sure that kids who have the ability to get a higher education have the chance to do so, and I wish that can be said for other countries as well. Other than that, the schools aren't going to lower their standards just because some kids don't want to study as hard and still get into the schools they want.

    • I agree with you Billy. Only Canadian citizens should be allowed to attend Canadian universities. Granted there is a slight advantage to foreign immigrants high tuition payments, which lower the ones we have to pay. However, Canadians shouldn't not get accepted into universities simply because they're too full of foreign immigrants.

      • I supposed you are an aboriginal yourself? Because anyone else would be considered a “foreign immigrant”.

    • I suppose you are First Nations… get over yourself… we should give students with the highest achievements the first places in Universities.

    • International students do indeed pay a higher tuition, which most of the time goes into subsidizing the costs of tuition for Canadian students. If the question is why Canadian students cannot afford to go to University, then you should be directing your questions and frustrations at the government, not scapegoating on 'foreigners'.

    • How about challenging your “own kids” to pushing themselves to match the new standard? It’s idiotic to blame asians for working hard. It’s viewing something negatively that shouldn’t be viewed negatively at all.

    • It’s not the foreign kids fault that they’re smarter than stupid white kids from Canada. If you spent more time actually studying, you would have gotten into university as well, Billy.

  2. Too many foreigners allowed into our Universities when our own kids cannot get entry. Now Dalton McGuinty wants to spend millions of tax dollars bringing in Students from China and paying for the whole shot.
    What about our own Canadian kids who can't afford to go to University.

  3. Like so many other times when he realised that he goofed Dalton will do a 180 on this too.

    • We can only hope he wakes up and smells the coffee or gets voted out before he can do any more harm to the Citizens of Ontario.
      40,000 dollars. I know hundreds of low income Ontario families who need that money to put their kids through University.

      You just know that the Chinese Students selected will be the kids of rich politicians and businessmen who could afford to pay for it in the first place. Won't see too many Chinese kids from the country.

  4. Like so many other times when he realised that he goofed Dalton will do a 180 on this too.

  5. Agreed. Affirmative action just hurts those it's intended to help anyways, and is based on the racist premise that some races just cant perform as well as others. I call major double bs on that, all races are equal and smart kids from any background can succeed if they work hard.

    This upsets those who are in the victimology industry, and frankly this is just further proof that its the correct position. Many kids who have been brainwashed by these buffoons now blame each of their failures on imaginary racism.

    If you want a race-neutral society, where race matters as much and as little as the colour of your hair, you should oppose any kind of affirmative action.

    If you stand to benefit from racial strife and racial divide, classify people by race, then by all means you should support affirmative action.

    There can only be one kind of equality: equality of outcome or equality of opportunity – the two are mutually exclusive.

    • Do you really believe that racism is imaginary? If you do, then you are very out of touch with the world. Perhaps you should read up on the imagined fantasies of white folks who believe they are being taken over, invaded, and all that garbage. The system has been set up to keep non-Whites out no matter how successful non-Whites are in achieving high grades and everything else required of them to gain entry to post-secondary education and jobs that they are competent and highly qualified to do.

      Please get an education for yourself so you know what you are missing in your worldview.

      • That's pretty funny, suggesting i should get an education when you cant even read.

        I never said racism is imaginary, i said that many blame their failures on imaginary racism. That does not imply that all racism is imaginary. Im very well aware of real racism: affirmative action is racism, your avatar "WhiteFantasies" is racist, the treatment of people in Caledonia is racist, and Stacy Bond's recent treatment by the Ottawa police was racist.

        But clearly, from your rant, you are one of those who blames his failures on imaginary racism. Good luck with that. Perhaps a bit of introspection is in order.

        "The system has been set up to keep non-Whites out no matter how successful non-Whites are in achieving high grades and everything else required of them to gain entry to post-secondary education and jobs that they are competent and highly qualified to do."

        That's a case in point of this vile attitude. If Canadians were really racist and wanted to keep "non-whites" out, it would be easy, we could put an end to immigration tomorrow. But we dont because we understand that immigration benefits Canada.

        Also, I can tell you from personal experience that I've worked with many non-whites at very high levels of employment, and these people dont think much of the likes of you, who whine that life isnt fair instead of working towards success.

    • Affirmative action doesn't hurt anyone.

      Some groups don't perform as well as others, and that's a fact in the US that needs addressing as the prevailing assumption explaining why those groups fail is due to American racial injustice. It is a form of reparations for past deeds that still have a deleterious effect on US groups. This, in my mind and others, is fair and mindful of America's disdainful past while forging ahead to produce a better future. White Americans received affirmative action at the expense of Black Americans for hundreds of years, and no amount of patient apologizing will ever change that.

      Canada, on the other hand, suffers no such disadvantaged groups. Although the reason people do not do well is largely due to the same causes in the US–culture and motivation–there is no historically oppressed group to repay. Thus, there is no need for affirmative action.

      • Seriously, Canada has no such disadvantaged groups? Must be nice to live in that happy bubble.

  6. Agreed. Affirmative action just hurts those it's intended to help anyways, and is based on the racist premise that some races just cant perform as well as others. I call major double bs on that, all races are equal and smart kids from any background can succeed if they work hard.

    This upsets those who are in the victimology industry, and frankly this is just further proof that its the correct position. Many kids who have been brainwashed by these buffoons now blame each of their failures on imaginary racism.

    If you want a race-neutral society, where race matters as much and as little as the colour of your hair, you should oppose any kind of affirmative action.

    If you stand to benefit from racial strife and racial divide, classify people by race, then by all means you should support affirmative action.

    There can only be one kind of equality: equality of outcome or equality of opportunity – the two are mutually exclusive.

  7. So, you want to make it merrit based. I will assume that the primary yardstick to be used would be grades. Setting aside the short comings of such an approach… here is my provocation.

    Let's make one or two universities that have an admissions policy based strictly on grades and if you get in….

    your education is paid for.

    • I agree with that with the following conditions:

      1) grades required to get in are not just good but great
      2) student comes from at most the middle-class – no rich kids should get a free education on the public dime
      3) fields are restricted to engineering, science, law, medicine, business/admin

      • I'll agree with 3 and 1, but not 2. Best grades get you in. No if, ands, or buts.

        There are going to be some people, that due to accident of their birth, would have a harder time getting to the top tier of grades for acceptance. So, I would put the outreach to compensate for this at the elementary and highschool level. My objective is to have the combination of best raw talent and demonstrated achievement get into this uber-elite school. It would be perfectly clear to all that the criteria for entrance is grades, no excuses. If you want it, come and get it.

      • I agree with the first 2 of your conditions. But the third one shows a bias towards certain fields that is unwarranted. Of course, I guess that you think that they are more useful fields that the public should be willing to pay for, since we benefit a lot from them.

        I humbly suggest that such fields as philosophy, politics, economics etc… (ie arts) have greatly contributed to where we are now, and can be a source of progress for the future.

  8. So, you want to make it merrit based. I will assume that the primary yardstick to be used would be grades. Setting aside the short comings of such an approach… here is my provocation.

    Let's make one or two universities that have an admissions policy based strictly on grades and if you get in….

    your education is paid for.

  9. There you go. Macleans in full CYA mode.

  10. There you go. Macleans in full CYA mode.

  11. Maclean's: JMHO but this was an excellent report. I am amazed at the demands for an apology for it being 'racist' or offensive. Living in Vancouver, it is general knowledge that Asian kids are high achievers and grow up in a family culture that promotes this.

    Did your reporters get any suggestion of the downside of higher suicide rates? or is this something we are not expierencing here? http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates

    • Thanks for that link to an excellent article: about a problem which NEEDS some exposure in this debate. Not sure why you're getting so many thumbs down – I can only presume it's from those who don't want the underbelly of certain cultural practices to be exposed, or from those who are *blindly* pro-multicultural (i.e. it's all good, there's no downside).

      I thought the Confucian reference was particularly illuminating (and troubling).

      The posted comments below that article were poignantly relevant. They contained a reference which I think has some bearing on this discussion (and should be a warning to us all): http://www.counterpunch.org/tsao08202009.html

  12. Maclean's: JMHO but this was an excellent report. I am amazed at the demands for an apology for it being 'racist' or offensive. Living in Vancouver, it is general knowledge that Asian kids are high achievers and grow up in a family culture that promotes this.

    Did your reporters get any suggestion of the downside of higher suicide rates? or is this something we are not expierencing here? http://www.asianweek.com/2009/08/14/suicide-rates

  13. Do you know foreign students pay 2 or 3 times tuition and it's an income source for Canadian universities?
    I would suggest you start to save money for your own kids if you want them to go to university.
    I agree every Canadian kids should have equal right to go to university and university should admit students based on merit instead of race.
    I wonder which US university claims they admit students base on RACE?

  14. I agree with that with the following conditions:

    1) grades required to get in are not just good but great
    2) student comes from at most the middle-class – no rich kids should get a free education on the public dime
    3) fields are restricted to engineering, science, law, medicine, business/admin

  15. Do you really believe that racism is imaginary? If you do, then you are very out of touch with the world. Perhaps you should read up on the imagined fantasies of white folks who believe they are being taken over, invaded, and all that garbage. The system has been set up to keep non-Whites out no matter how successful non-Whites are in achieving high grades and everything else required of them to gain entry to post-secondary education and jobs that they are competent and highly qualified to do.

    Please get an education for yourself so you know what you are missing in your worldview.

  16. I hope people are understanding that the article says that Asian kids are getting into these schools because there ISN'T affirmative action in place to keep quotas of white kids higher in the schools.

    These same white kids who complain they can't get into U of T because the "Asians" make it hard to compete are full of crap. They want to blame someone else for their downfalls.

    And the other bull point "Asians don't party" is probably one of the stupidest generalizations I've ever heard.

    The article also fails in mentioning other races of people who are in school and the cultural diversity in place in all of these schools. And the student board is filled with different colours and ethnicities in U of T (a fact the article fails to mention when pointing out that other schools don't have a diverse student executive council).

    There are white kids at U of T too, you know.
    This article is offensive to anyone of any colour, even if it wasn't meant to be.

  17. I hope people are understanding that the article says that Asian kids are getting into these schools because there ISN'T affirmative action in place to keep quotas of white kids higher in the schools.

    These same white kids who complain they can't get into U of T because the "Asians" make it hard to compete are full of crap. They want to blame someone else for their downfalls.

    And the other bull point "Asians don't party" is probably one of the stupidest generalizations I've ever heard.

    The article also fails in mentioning other races of people who are in school and the cultural diversity in place in all of these schools. And the student board is filled with different colours and ethnicities in U of T (a fact the article fails to mention when pointing out that other schools don't have a diverse student executive council).

    There are white kids at U of T too, you know.
    This article is offensive to anyone of any colour, even if it wasn't meant to be.

    • I am black and go to U of T. The article is not offensive to me at all, but I can see why it would be to asians.
      The fact of the matter is that it is indeed true that the asian population at many top ranked schools is exceedingly high, but to be honest, I don't see why white people are complaining. The population of black people at U of T is incredibly slim. I don't blame the asians for this as I got in to U of T with relative ease. It's all a matter of work ethic. I actually feel that the second most dominant group at U of T are indeed the caucasians – by a tiny margin at that, and if they were the most dominant there will be no such article titled, "Too White?". In conclusion… MacLean's shouldn't be flamed for their article as it was the free expression of a collection of thoughts. The society shouldn't be advocating censorship just because it diverged from what could be thought of as "politically correct."

    • I agree – this would be no different than Canadian hockey players complaining there are too many Europeans (actual foreigners) on their team. But if you want to have the best hockey team, compete at a world-class level and want Canadian hockey players to compete better…can it really be all-Canadian? No differently, a baseball, basketball and football team does not represent the ethnic stats of America (nor does an Olympics team)….it's not about representation, it's about achieving excellence.

      And it's somewhat self-serving that Maclean's doesn't notice how few Asians there are in media and entertainment – disproportionate to the number of qualified Asian candidates. I have to believe there's more than zero. I can only imagine there are many parents in their newsroom worried their kids can't compete against "Asians." It's pretty clear to me Maclean's believes anyone who looks Asian is not socially adept enough to work for Maclean's and to be questioned..

    • I have heard from many students and a teacher who went to U of T who cites it as a very diversified school, and by that meaning they get students from a variety of origins and backgrounds. In a school that size, it's not surprising. The only reason some people are complaining about schools being "too asian" would be because it is no longer dominated by caucasian students, as the case was many years ago. However, in a country like Canada, we work hard to make everyone equal and eliminate racism. Labeling some schools as "too asian" is like a giant step back. Aren't the asian students Canadian citizens just like the rest of us? Univiersities are a miniature of the real world where competition is high and is what drives our society forward. Perhaps these asian students should be thanked for pushing the bar higher, maybe some of the more priviledged students who think they are ENTITLED to a post-secondary should rethink their learning strategies and simply work harder. I'm sorry, but if they're allergic to hard work, I don't see how they might survive in the university, let alone the world.

  18. That's pretty funny, suggesting i should get an education when you cant even read.

    I never said racism is imaginary, i said that many blame their failures on imaginary racism. That does not imply that all racism is imaginary. Im very well aware of real racism: affirmative action is racism, your avatar "WhiteFantasies" is racist, the treatment of people in Caledonia is racist, and Stacy Bond's recent treatment by the Ottawa police was racist.

    But clearly, from your rant, you are one of those who blames his failures on imaginary racism. Good luck with that. Perhaps a bit of introspection is in order.

    "The system has been set up to keep non-Whites out no matter how successful non-Whites are in achieving high grades and everything else required of them to gain entry to post-secondary education and jobs that they are competent and highly qualified to do."

    That's a case in point of this vile attitude. If Canadians were really racist and wanted to keep "non-whites" out, it would be easy, we could put an end to immigration tomorrow. But we dont because we understand that immigration benefits Canada.

    Also, I can tell you from personal experience that I've worked with many non-whites at very high levels of employment, and these people dont think much of the likes of you, who whine that life isnt fair instead of working towards success.

  19. does macleans also agree that admissions should not be based on gender? in many canadian engineering and science university department admissions that kind of selection is common. it's also quite common with respect to scholarships.

  20. does macleans also agree that admissions should not be based on gender? in many canadian engineering and science university department admissions that kind of selection is common. it's also quite common with respect to scholarships.

  21. Not when the Ontario govt has committed to spending 40,000 per foreign (chinese) student. That's a reverse head tax.

  22. Merit, what is Merit? How do you define it? The US schools are not being racist, but nor are they being blind. Grades alone are not Merit. If you take one kid, who is from wealthy parents and he has good grades and you take another kid who has inferior, but still decent grades but who grew up in a single-parent household and his mom was addicted to crack, then which kid has more merit? The Canadian system says the rich kid – they blindly assess people on grades alone. The US school would say, hold up a minute – this poor kid, he's really climbed his way out of the gutter here – that's merit. Are the US schools filtering for Asians or are they filtering for kids who have benefited from having education-obsessed parents? The merit of any individual needs to be assessed in isolation from their circumstances – whether that's physical, mental, cultural or financial – and I think the US schools are just trying to come up with ways to accomplish that. If Canada's schools are filling up disproportionately with people of Asian origin then that means one of two things – either non-Asian kids lack Merit, or the Universities lack the right tools to assess merit. I'm confident it is the latter.

  23. Merit, what is Merit? How do you define it? The US schools are not being racist, but nor are they being blind. Grades alone are not Merit. If you take one kid, who is from wealthy parents and he has good grades and you take another kid who has inferior, but still decent grades but who grew up in a single-parent household and his mom was addicted to crack, then which kid has more merit? The Canadian system says the rich kid – they blindly assess people on grades alone. The US school would say, hold up a minute – this poor kid, he's really climbed his way out of the gutter here – that's merit. Are the US schools filtering for Asians or are they filtering for kids who have benefited from having education-obsessed parents? The merit of any individual needs to be assessed in isolation from their circumstances – whether that's physical, mental, cultural or financial – and I think the US schools are just trying to come up with ways to accomplish that. If Canada's schools are filling up disproportionately with people of Asian origin then that means one of two things – either non-Asian kids lack Merit, or the Universities lack the right tools to assess merit. I'm confident it is the latter.

    • You are saying some hidden merits based upon your white skin?

      • Oooooooooooh what a great point Dedede. I don't know why I expected someone to come up with that one.
        If you read the Scotty's comment properly, you would realize a poor kid from a single-parent household can be of any ethnicity.

    • "If Canada's schools are filling up disproportionately with people of Asian origin then that means one of two things – either non-Asian kids lack Merit, or the Universities lack the right tools to assess merit. I'm confident it is the latter. "
      I am quiet curious. How do you know it is the latter? Based on what empirical evidence? Based on your definition of merit, i.e., "climbed his way out of the gutter here – that's merit.", Asian Canadians have much more merits b/c most of them came from poor, developing countries whose GDP per capitals are way lower than Canada's. Not to mention Asians were and still are discriminated in Canada.

      • I'm sorry, but this has to be said: the most racist group I know of (within my own personal experience) are recently immigrated Chinese-Canadians (within the last two decades – older Chinese immigrants integrated into Canadian society). Unlike previous waves of Chinese immigrants who came here to escape communism many, if not most, are generally pro-communist. More importantly, they have come from communities/countries which are fiercely and proudly racist and xenophobic (both China and Japan are in this category). They feel no need to integrate themselves into the larger Canadian society, and in general feel disdain for it (for evidence just peruse some of the comments here). Once in positions of power they only ever hire their own and feel no need whatsoever to honour the tenents of "diversity" which they themselves benefit from.

        I'm white and my husband is Canadian of Chinese descent – raised by his parents to be fully Canadian and to embrace Western values. He was hired into an almost exclusively Chinese (Cantonese) division but worked to hire diverse races into his own department. He was eventually "moved on" in favour of a new manager who was more "Chinese" friendly.

        • People use to talk about people of different skin colors like you. That's exactly what racial prejudice is about – when you make derogatory comments towards a race and generalize that everyone is the same – and that a race is judged based on this. That's exactly what racism is.

          • No, it is not, it is first hand experience. and you are generalizing it.

      • "Asian Canadians have much more merits b/c most of them came from poor, developing countries whose GDP per capitals are way lower than Canada's. "

        Canada is very selective in its immigration policies, thus we often get well off or well educated families. As is mentioned in the article.

  24. In the 60s 70s 80s and 90s When 'visible minorities' needed a leg up, they got it. Now that they're on top….well now..its time to restore merit!

  25. In the 60s 70s 80s and 90s When 'visible minorities' needed a leg up, they got it. Now that they're on top….well now..its time to restore merit!

  26. I'll agree with 3 and 1, but not 2. Best grades get you in. No if, ands, or buts.

    There are going to be some people, that due to accident of their birth, would have a harder time getting to the top tier of grades for acceptance. So, I would put the outreach to compensate for this at the elementary and highschool level. My objective is to have the combination of best raw talent and demonstrated achievement get into this uber-elite school. It would be perfectly clear to all that the criteria for entrance is grades, no excuses. If you want it, come and get it.

  27. I completed my undergraduate degree at UBC's Sauder School of Business which might be one of the most Asian faculties around. I was routinely one of 5 or 6 white kids in classes of 40. I never sat there and though, geez, this sure would be better if there were more white faces. Most people my age are used to being in classes with people of all different background. Quite frankly, most of the complaining seems to come from the generation older than us. I guess they're just looking out for their kids.

    More back on topic, the Sauder School has started to look at more than just academics when admitting students. This is a thinly veiled attempt at getting some more white kids in the school. The rationale behind the decision was that business leaders in the community were not satisfied with the grads the school was producing. One recruiter from a major accounting firm had told me that half the students (I can only guess which half he meant) "couldn't take care of themselves let alone a client". Obviously this is a huge concern. Some students spend all their time and energy into getting into university that once out, they don't know what to do with themselves.

    • I don't know that major accounting firm is doing a baby sitting job. I work for a public company. A major accounting firm just need to email us what files they need and we give them what they need. Nobody needs to take care of anybody in the process.
      How long had the Union protected GM for? Thanks to Union, Canadian government becomes the new shareholder. You have to face competition sooner or later.
      One of my neighbor got a double degree from University of Waterloo. She paid her own tuition by herself. She said she would only pay half of her kids' tuition so they know they should work hard in university instead of going party all the time. By the way. She is white. White Canadians are smart too.
      I don't understand why Maclearn tried to create problems between White Canadians and Asian Canadians. Canada has a good reputation of being nice and fair.

    • Most accounting firms in Vancouver have an Asia-Pacific division. Without an Asia-Pacific knowledge base, there would be far less major accounting firms in Vancouver. It's a significant chunk of business.

    • I have to partly agree with Horatio. I too believe the Sauder School changed their policy in order to diversify the student body. Though to be fair, I remember reading an article (in the Vancouver Sun I believe) at around the time of the policy change, and they quoted a Vancouver business woman who complained that UBC was producing too many students who were merely "number crunchers" – and she herself was Asian. So you can't frame this as strictly a race issue.

      The cutoff average to get into the business faculty at the time of the policy change was around 92% if I recall. Now if you compare the group of high school students who have all have an average of 93%, compared to a group who all have an average of 89%, does that mean the kids of the 93% on average going to be much better business people than those with the 89% average. I don't think it does. I bet if students in both groups enrolled in business, and then you looked at them 20 years down the road, it would be impossible to determine who had 93% and who had 89% in high school based on their post-graduation success (or lack thereof).

      This is the main flaw with the "meritocratic" approach. It is based strictly on grades. Community involvement and personality traits should have merit as well. The UBC business faculty recognizes this. Compare Joe and Chris. Joe has an average of 95%, but has only token community involvement, his mom does everything for him, and he is very introverted and evinces no leadership qualities. Chris has an 85% percent average but has run a small business on the side, has show significant leadership qualities in school activities, and is independent and outgoing.

      Before UBC's policy change, Chris wouldn't have a chance of getting in. But really, who do you think would likely be a better business man? I would say Chris.

      I don't understand why, for the most part, Canadians have this parochial approach to "merit". Merit can mean more than just your high school average. I'm not saying we should go back to the bad old days where you could get into university because Daddy was rich and knew the dean, but I sometimes think it would benefit Canada if Canadians would stop being so Canadian.

      (Just for the record, I've never attended UBC or worked there.)

  28. I completed my undergraduate degree at UBC's Sauder School of Business which might be one of the most Asian faculties around. I was routinely one of 5 or 6 white kids in classes of 40. I never sat there and though, geez, this sure would be better if there were more white faces. Most people my age are used to being in classes with people of all different background. Quite frankly, most of the complaining seems to come from the generation older than us. I guess they're just looking out for their kids.

    More back on topic, the Sauder School has started to look at more than just academics when admitting students. This is a thinly veiled attempt at getting some more white kids in the school. The rationale behind the decision was that business leaders in the community were not satisfied with the grads the school was producing. One recruiter from a major accounting firm had told me that half the students (I can only guess which half he meant) "couldn't take care of themselves let alone a client". Obviously this is a huge concern. Some students spend all their time and energy into getting into university that once out, they don't know what to do with themselves.

  29. Unfortunately, I see this as a missed opportunity for Maclean's. The original article was far from the most racist thing I've seen in print, but it was racially insensitive in ways that haven't been addressed in this response.

    I can't put it better than Jeet Heer did in the National Post.
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/11/15/je

    But I understand that it's hard to admit mistakes.

  30. Unfortunately, I see this as a missed opportunity for Maclean's. The original article was far from the most racist thing I've seen in print, but it was racially insensitive in ways that haven't been addressed in this response.

    I can't put it better than Jeet Heer did in the National Post.
    http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/11/15/je

    But I understand that it's hard to admit mistakes.

  31. What about Canadians who happen to have yellow skin and speak a sing-song language? Are they "foreigners"?

  32. No US university will admit to discriminating against Asians, yet it's the worst kept secret in the biz. In fact when California voters passed a law prohibiting any discrimination, the proportion of Asian students in the UC system soared the next year. I wonder why's that?

  33. It would have been far better for Maclean's to write about why it's harmful to Canadian society to promote racist stereotypes, rather than this lame attempt at trying to pretend that they weren't intentionally trying to provoke outrage.

    • There is nothing wrong with stereotyping that which is obviously true. Grow a brain, "Asian".

      • So I guess we should write an article about how there's too many Black people in the NBA? Nothing wrong with telling the world that all Black people play basketball because it's "obviously true". I would tell you to grow a brain, but you don't appear to have one to begin with.

  34. It would have been far better for Maclean's to write about why it's harmful to Canadian society to promote racist stereotypes, rather than this lame attempt at trying to pretend that they weren't intentionally trying to provoke outrage.

  35. The original column was racist against white people.

  36. The original column was racist against white people.

    • Oh, the injustice. I think Asians should write a national article in Maclean's entitled, "Too White?", when talking about the gross underrepresentation of Asians on Canadian television. And that article would be racist against Asians. According to you.

      • I'[m thinking it's more that the article basically implies that white students really aren"t capable of competeting with asian students, and that all white students want to do is party and drink. That's a pretty awful blanket statement as well. There are generalizations being thrown around way too much in this article to take it seriously.

  37. How many times will Macleans post about this issue? When will the sensationalism end? No one suggested affirmative action and there are no plans currently to change university admission criteria, so why all the kvetching aimed at an imaginary enemy

  38. How many times will Macleans post about this issue? When will the sensationalism end? No one suggested affirmative action and there are no plans currently to change university admission criteria, so why all the kvetching aimed at an imaginary enemy

  39. Affirmative action doesn't hurt anyone.

    Some groups don't perform as well as others, and that's a fact in the US that needs addressing as the prevailing assumption explaining why those groups fail is due to American racial injustice. It is a form of reparations for past deeds that still have a deleterious effect on US groups. This, in my mind and others, is fair and mindful of America's disdainful past while forging ahead to produce a better future. White Americans received affirmative action at the expense of Black Americans for hundreds of years, and no amount of patient apologizing will ever change that.

    Canada, on the other hand, suffers no such disadvantaged groups. Although the reason people do not do well is largely due to the same causes in the US–culture and motivation–there is no historically oppressed group to repay. Thus, there is no need for affirmative action.

  40. There is nothing wrong with stereotyping that which is obviously true. Grow a brain, "Asian".

  41. What exactly is your point? Who cares if the university is taking in thousands of dollars to subsidize overpaid board members? Greed is a highly objectionable trait.

    The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of Canadian universities should be filled to the brim with Canadian students, and not the likes of Chinese and Indian foreigners. I don't care how brilliant these people are; we shouldn't be denying students thr right to attend university if we can afford not to do so. The rule should be:

    At most, the very least foreigners. At least, the highest amount of Canadians.

  42. Do you mean white=Canadian?

  43. Why don't white people go back to Europe? Too many white people in Canada!

  44. You are saying some hidden merits based upon your white skin?

  45. Way to work on taking your foot out of your mouth Macleans…
    BTW, just because some panelist happened to use the words 'Too Asian' dosen't excuse you for putting it as the title for a story filled with strong racist undertones.

  46. Way to work on taking your foot out of your mouth Macleans…
    BTW, just because some panelist happened to use the words 'Too Asian' dosen't excuse you for putting it as the title for a story filled with strong racist undertones.

  47. This two idiot so call joutnalist are dumm stupid I wonder why they got the job at all,the H R at maclean must be stupid and have to be fired,this is a blantan attack at ASIAN cvouse we are doing well and u kids are on drug. what an idiot u are!!!

  48. This two idiot so call joutnalist are dumm stupid I wonder why they got the job at all,the H R at maclean must be stupid and have to be fired,this is a blantan attack at ASIAN cvouse we are doing well and u kids are on drug. what an idiot u are!!!

    • Nice Grammar and spelling. Glad you are doing well.

      • Of couse couse I am more intelligent than u are!

        • Sure would not be able to tell by your grammar and spelling.

          Whats a "couse couse"?

    • take an english writing course and pass it, before attempting to write a response.

    • I must be on 'drug', because I can barely interpret what it is you're trying to say. Er…I hope you're not a product of the Canadian schooling system.

    • You really need to learn how to spell. Perhaps university could help you out… or are the standards for admission too high?

  49. No Helen. I mean Canadian Kids whether you be of Chinese, Japanese, German, Indian, Pakistani descent – Muslim, Christian, Jew, Agnostic
    KEY WORD IS CANADIAN CITIZEN.

  50. This is not about income. it's about education and a lot of CANADIAN families do not have the money to put their kids through University. I would have liked to have saved money to put my kids through university but my income is at the low end of the scale living on a Military disability pension.
    My son had to borrow thousands of dollars to put himself through University. He did not get any handouts from McGuinty like foreign Chinese students are about to get. Charity begins at home. It pi$$es me off when I see certain groups getting everything for free and the rest of us have to pay for it.

  51. This is not about income. it's about education and a lot of CANADIAN families do not have the money to put their kids through University. I would have liked to have saved money to put my kids through university but my income is at the low end of the scale living on a Military disability pension.
    My son had to borrow thousands of dollars to put himself through University. He did not get any handouts from McGuinty like foreign Chinese students are about to get. Charity begins at home. It pi$$es me off when I see certain groups getting everything for free and the rest of us have to pay for it.

  52. Nice Grammar and spelling. Glad you are doing well.

  53. Who would pay your welfare then?

  54. We can only hope he wakes up and smells the coffee or gets voted out before he can do any more harm to the Citizens of Ontario.
    40,000 dollars. I know hundreds of low income Ontario families who need that money to put their kids through University.

    You just know that the Chinese Students selected will be the kids of rich politicians and businessmen who could afford to pay for it in the first place. Won't see too many Chinese kids from the country.

  55. It seems the 'white' Canadians no long can compete fairly and will rely on some forms of affirmative action, our journalists are beginning to fan the flame and using title likes 'too Asian' to initiate their social movement.

  56. It seems the 'white' Canadians no long can compete fairly and will rely on some forms of affirmative action, our journalists are beginning to fan the flame and using title likes 'too Asian' to initiate their social movement.

  57. It seems that you've misunderstood the foreign scholarship program. The intent of McGuinty providing these scholarships to foreign PhD students is to attract the best and brightest to Ontario schools. These are students who already have their pick from the best schools all over the world, but who might be wooed to Ontario because of the scholarships. Having these students in our schools , in turn, will help to promote the image of Ontario universities abroad, helping to continue attracting the brightest talent and more importantly, funding.

    Without this funding, there's no way your son would be able to get even his undergraduate degree at the low tuition fees that he likely paid. On top of that, universities already highly-subsidized by the governments (and so are government-funded student loan programs), so when you say that your son did not receive any "handouts from the government," that is also incorrect.

  58. I agree with the first 2 of your conditions. But the third one shows a bias towards certain fields that is unwarranted. Of course, I guess that you think that they are more useful fields that the public should be willing to pay for, since we benefit a lot from them.

    I humbly suggest that such fields as philosophy, politics, economics etc… (ie arts) have greatly contributed to where we are now, and can be a source of progress for the future.

  59. Another small, but significant point is that the foreign scholarships are going towards PhD students, and not undergraduate students. So technically, unless your son is in graduate studies, means that these foreign students are not in any kind of competition for either admission or scholarship funds with your son specifically.

    Also, if you look into almost any PhD program at any university, you'll see that those students who are admitted into the PhD programs will almost always receive a good amount in scholarship funds. Funding is built into graduate programs at most universities so that grad students (both foreign and domestic) rarely have to pay the full amount of tuition themselves. So this really isn't the blatant preferential treatment you're alleging.

  60. Oooooooooooh what a great point Dedede. I don't know why I expected someone to come up with that one.
    If you read the Scotty's comment properly, you would realize a poor kid from a single-parent household can be of any ethnicity.

  61. Student loans are not a handout. It is a low interest loan that has to be paid back regardless. Ask any kid who is now paying it back. One big chunk of change off their pay cheque.
    The way I see it is that these Non-Canadian Students regardless of how smart and wonderful they are, are taking up the spot that a Canadian Student should have even though he or she may not be as smart as the foreign kid.

    LOW TUITION FEES….ARE YOU SERIOUS?????

  62. All races are equal, it is how kids are raised, the role of their parents in influencing and helping them to set their future goals and expectations. This is something the author should look into.

  63. All races are equal, it is how kids are raised, the role of their parents in influencing and helping them to set their future goals and expectations. This is something the author should look into.

    • All races are supposed* to be seen as equal.

      • All … were created equal. Some just believe they are more equal than others.

  64. Of couse couse I am more intelligent than u are!

  65. Yes, low tuition fees. The average tuition fee for a 4-year university student in Ontario (according to Stats Can) is about $4,500 a year. While this is one of the higher tuition rates in Canada (not the highest – that honour goes to Nova Scotia, where the average tuition is about $5,800 a year), that is explained simply by the fact that the bulk of the country's top schools are in Ontario.

    Compare that $4,500 tuition to the average tuition for a U.S. student (average of both public and private schools is just under $12,000). At a public university, the average student would have to pay close to $7,000 for tuition, and over $28,000 for a private university. This is based on numbers from the U.S. Department of Education.

    Also, as someone who's just put myself through a Master's program using student loans, I am very familiar with the concept of student loans, thanks. And because I've used them, I am very aware of the many benefits the government offers me through them (debt forgiveness for some, low interest, and interest-free periods). Try asking for any of that from a bank.

  66. Stats Canada is way off the mark as usual. My son's tuition was well over $4500 not to mention his rent and other living expenses. Probably cost him close to $18,000 to $20,000 a year.
    You are quite right, a Student Loan is a generous loan from the Government just as you described, but bottom line is, it is still a loan that you have to pay back with interest, albeit not as much as a bank.
    My point is why should Ontario Tax dollars fund Non Canadian students regardless of where they are from just because they are smart. That is just plain wrong using our taxes to educate a foreign student.
    There are enough Ontario students who need a spot in the University and if Ontario wants to spend 40 grand on a student then spend it on our own kids.

  67. Again my point is that Ontario Tax dollars should not be spent on Foreign Students. If they come to Canadian Universities then they should pay their own way 100%.

  68. If your story is legitimate then why can't i Google another media outlet validating your story? Not even a local media outlet or a campus paper. Why can't i find a tweet on Twitter that agrees with your story (from a university student)? And how do we know your anonymous sources are real? If Asians can be named even though there are racists out there, why can't you name your other sources (if this is a real issue)? I question your credibility.

  69. If your story is legitimate then why can't i Google another media outlet validating your story? Not even a local media outlet or a campus paper. Why can't i find a tweet on Twitter that agrees with your story (from a university student)? And how do we know your anonymous sources are real? If Asians can be named even though there are racists out there, why can't you name your other sources (if this is a real issue)? I question your credibility.

    • I note also that Nikki Best – a source that was named – has already questioned how she was quoted.

      • I also note that the anonymous sources have yet to appear online anonymously to validate their quotes or your coverage of their opinions. If one quote has already been questioned publicly, what are we to believe of other quotes?

    • oh well…i guess if you can't, "google it,' and i guess that is a verb…to google…or not to google that is the question. it is a bit pathetic if we are resorting to words like twitter and google to validate issues.

      • If this story is indeed what many university students think (vs what their parents and grandparents think), I think what's posted online is indeed relevant. The demographic of Twitter and Google search results for universities skews towards students.

        This is where I couldn't find Stephanie Findlay's own university paper backing Maclean's story – a place long-time Maclean's columnist Allan Fotheringham called the “best journalism school in Canada.” But I did find a college paper peer of Stephanie Findlay defying Maclean's report that “there is little Asian representation on student government, campus newspapers or college radio stations.”

      • PS Google is in the dictionary. Look it up.

  70. I note also that Nikki Best – a source that was named – has already questioned how she was quoted.

  71. I also note that the anonymous sources have yet to appear online anonymously to validate their quotes or your coverage of their opinions. If one quote has already been questioned publicly, what are we to believe of other quotes?

  72. You can also quote people who believe Obama is Muslim and not born in America but that doesn't mean it's true. What media outlet has validated your story as reality? Anonymous sources who've yet to appear online anonymously make this story real? You may wish to attribute "Too Asian" to someone else, but if you Google "Too Asian" you will likely only find "Maclean's."

  73. You can also quote people who believe Obama is Muslim and not born in America but that doesn't mean it's true. What media outlet has validated your story as reality? Anonymous sources who've yet to appear online anonymously make this story real? You may wish to attribute "Too Asian" to someone else, but if you Google "Too Asian" you will likely only find "Maclean's."

  74. "We expected that it would be provocative, but we did not intend to cause offence."

    If this statement is true, then Maclean's has no clue about the world it lives in. Provoking xenophobic flame-wars does not make a magazine relevant, and it does not "start important conversations." Please, Maclean's (and Margaret Wente and Barbara Kay): stop passing off your ignorance as a form of bravery! And it is cowardly to stick a question mark on the end of an inflammatory statement and claim that you are "merely asking questions." Take some responsibility and issue the apology owed to all Canadians!

  75. "We expected that it would be provocative, but we did not intend to cause offence."

    If this statement is true, then Maclean's has no clue about the world it lives in. Provoking xenophobic flame-wars does not make a magazine relevant, and it does not "start important conversations." Please, Maclean's (and Margaret Wente and Barbara Kay): stop passing off your ignorance as a form of bravery! And it is cowardly to stick a question mark on the end of an inflammatory statement and claim that you are "merely asking questions." Take some responsibility and issue the apology owed to all Canadians!

    • I think the person who wore the KKK Halloween costume and won a prize from his peers also expected to be "provocative" and did "not intend to cause offence." He too said he was not "racist."

  76. I think the person who wore the KKK Halloween costume and won a prize from his peers also expected to be "provocative" and did "not intend to cause offence." He too said he was not "racist."

  77. There is no "trend" towards race based admissions policy in the U.S. The original article in "Inside Higher Education" that used the headline "Too Asian" was not about race based admissions but about the fact that many Asian Americans only wanted to apply to prestigious schools, and how recruiters from less prestigious schools were trying to convince Asian American parents and students to consider their schools too. The article was all about Asian American students as "prize" students to be recruited. Macleans used a sensationalist racist headline (when did "racism" become "provocative"?) to hype up a non-issue–present the evidence, Macleans, that a single Canadian university is considering capping their admissions of Asian students. You cannot because not a single one is–wonderful for you to take a principled stand on a non-issue, and a racist non-issue that you yourself invented.

  78. There is no "trend" towards race based admissions policy in the U.S. The original article in "Inside Higher Education" that used the headline "Too Asian" was not about race based admissions but about the fact that many Asian Americans only wanted to apply to prestigious schools, and how recruiters from less prestigious schools were trying to convince Asian American parents and students to consider their schools too. The article was all about Asian American students as "prize" students to be recruited. Macleans used a sensationalist racist headline (when did "racism" become "provocative"?) to hype up a non-issue–present the evidence, Macleans, that a single Canadian university is considering capping their admissions of Asian students. You cannot because not a single one is–wonderful for you to take a principled stand on a non-issue, and a racist non-issue that you yourself invented.

  79. Where did you get the information?
    If you check the website of any university, foreign students pay higher tuition. Normally two times what a Canadian pays.

  80. Seriously, Canada has no such disadvantaged groups? Must be nice to live in that happy bubble.

  81. Yes, of course, Stats Can – trained, professional statisticians who survey hundreds of thousands of Canadians and their data in a thorough, scientific manner are "off the mark," as usual. And your anecdotal experience based on circumstantial evidence is fact. RIght.

    If you'd read carefully, you would have seen that the Stats Can numbers are for average tuition. An 'average' means that some people's tuition will be more, and some people's will be less. And also, as I wrote, Stats Can numbers are based on the price of tuition only. Living expenses you'd have to pay regardless of whether you're in school or not and irrelevant to the point at hand.

    And to your point of why tax dollars should fund non-Canadian students, it's because these tax dollars are being spent as an investment to the future of our universities. Brighter students equals a better reputation for our schools equals more funding.

    Sure, the government could, as you suggest, simply use our money to create spaces and pay for the education of inferior students. But this would be a) an incredibly stupid investment by means of discouraging future funding and b) degrade the quality of our schools. A university's reputation is based on the quality of its students. What you are suggesting is that we should deteriorate the quality of our schools by accepting inferior students as some kind of a protectionist measure. I find this offensive. Oh, and your suggestion also runs completely contrary to the fundamental values of our society: meritocracy.

    I understand your concerns about low-income individuals and their access to education. But there are already provisions in place for lower-income, outstanding students. That's what scholarships and bursaries are there for. As for anyone else who doesn't quite meet that mark, to be perfectly frank, it is not the job of a government to pay for the education of mediocre students. They have access to student loans and yes, those students will have to pay the loans off. Nobody is entitled a free ride. At least, unless (like these foreign PhD students have with their outstanding credentials) they've earned it.

  82. Hi, Bill,
    How do you know the majority of university students are foreign students?
    A lot of immigrants have decent jobs with the education from original country. Everyone pay tax as long as they work in Canada. Their children deserve to have equal rights to study at a Canadian University.
    Foreign undergraduate students don't get financial assistant from the government. For graduate students, they do research for the university.
    Life isn't easy for everyone. Immigrants signed an agreement with the government that no welfare will be allowed if they couldn't find a job. They come to work and pay tax.

  83. This story is full of holes. I agree there is no "trend" towards race based admissions policy in the U.S. Honestly, how could you tell the difference between Cliff Lee (Texas Rangers) and Bruce Lee (martial arts)? They can only tell if a student is foreign or American. Most people who look "Asian" are Canadian or American in North American universities.

  84. This story is full of holes. I agree there is no "trend" towards race based admissions policy in the U.S. Honestly, how could you tell the difference between Cliff Lee (Texas Rangers) and Bruce Lee (martial arts)? They can only tell if a student is foreign or American. Most people who look "Asian" are Canadian or American in North American universities.

  85. If you look at Maclean's Canadian universities issues dating back to who knows when and this issue…do you see one Asian on the cover? Even within Maclean's coverage who are we to believe…the front covers of its Canadian universities issues or one story full of holes and anonymous sources.

  86. If you look at Maclean's Canadian universities issues dating back to who knows when and this issue…do you see one Asian on the cover? Even within Maclean's coverage who are we to believe…the front covers of its Canadian universities issues or one story full of holes and anonymous sources.

    • at least you may rest assured that the depiction of an average Havergal graduate was painfully accurate.

  87. In my opinion entry to university should be based strictly on merit (performance (marks) in previous year. Canadian citizens with 5 years residence in country: tuition and books and instruments should be paid totally by the government (home province 1/2 and feds 1/2. To continue, the performance must be kept up; failure to do so except for compassionate reasons, results in dropping of subsidization. Position can be restored after repeating one year self-paid.

    Foreigners pay what the traffic will bear but not displace a Canadian student.

    This was basically the system used for veterans after WWII and Korea.

    Education throughout all levels is a question of improving human capital.

  88. In my opinion entry to university should be based strictly on merit (performance (marks) in previous year. Canadian citizens with 5 years residence in country: tuition and books and instruments should be paid totally by the government (home province 1/2 and feds 1/2. To continue, the performance must be kept up; failure to do so except for compassionate reasons, results in dropping of subsidization. Position can be restored after repeating one year self-paid.

    Foreigners pay what the traffic will bear but not displace a Canadian student.

    This was basically the system used for veterans after WWII and Korea.

    Education throughout all levels is a question of improving human capital.

  89. It is perfectly OK to be racist against whites, particularly males. Don't you know that???

  90. It is perfectly OK to be racist against whites, particularly males. Don't you know that???

  91. Very telling that the Globe and Mail's Margaret Wente so far is the only quotable media person outside of Maclean's coming to the defense of this story. Ms. Wente also wrote blogging was too male – that women don't like to blog as much. She failed to read Huffington Post (most popular blog online started by a woman) and Tina Brown's Daily Beast (which merged with Newsweek).

    Some things don't change. Few racists will say they are racist. Few terrible journalists will say they are terrible. But I will say at least people apologized for the contest winning KKK Halloween costume debacle (albeit with a disclaimer that the person was not racist).

  92. Very telling that the Globe and Mail's Margaret Wente so far is the only quotable media person outside of Maclean's coming to the defense of this story. Ms. Wente also wrote blogging was too male – that women don't like to blog as much. She failed to read Huffington Post (most popular blog online started by a woman) and Tina Brown's Daily Beast (which merged with Newsweek).

    Some things don't change. Few racists will say they are racist. Few terrible journalists will say they are terrible. But I will say at least people apologized for the contest winning KKK Halloween costume debacle (albeit with a disclaimer that the person was not racist).

    • I bet a lot of teachers and school counsellors would back her up-even in the younger aged kids!

    • that's kind of the problem. asians aren't becoming "notable alumni" after being churned out of the program

  93. Ethan,
    Let first nation answers this question.
    We are all foreigners.

  94. That means tax payers in US agreed universities should not admit students based on RACE.

  95. Helen. I am not talking about immigrants and their children. They are Canadian and deserve every right and freedom that all Canadians have. Most immigrants I see are hard working people many of who open up businesses and contribute to Society. My main complaint is what McGuinty is proposing. $40,000 of Ontario Tax dollars per Chinese Student from Mainland China. That money would be better spent helping Canadian Students regardless of their roots or culture regardless of how long they have been in this country.

  96. Well Guest no point in arguing with you as you have your opinion and I have mine.

    "Nobody is entitled a free ride. At least, unless (like these foreign PhD students have with their outstanding credentials) they've earned it."

    EARNED IT. Yeah I will go along with that but why should the Ontario Government pay for it with our tax dollars. Let the Chinese Government pay for it.

  97. Sure would not be able to tell by your grammar and spelling.

    Whats a "couse couse"?

  98. How many scholarships and bursaries did your son apply for per year while he was in university?

  99. Of course it should be completely based on merit–competition is good for all. However, once this worm has turned and society finds it healthy to allow one minority group to be drastically 'over-represented' in the Nation's universities on the back of their own merit, then what does it mean for the numerous affirmative action programs for the not so successful minority groups? If one ethnic group bypass the limits of any quota system, then that means that white males should not have ceiling admission numers, which would in turn mean that many ethnic groups that have historically not be as competitive, such as blacks, hispanics, First Nations, will be even less represented. When dealing with quotas, affirmative action, or any other system based on ethnic demographics, it can only be all or nothing, and preferably nothing.
    The question is often asked, frequently with a negative connotation, if a given institution is too white. In a truly competitive system, the question would only be asked, is this institution too stupid, too incompetent, too stagnant. That would be the best question to ask.

  100. Of course it should be completely based on merit–competition is good for all. However, once this worm has turned and society finds it healthy to allow one minority group to be drastically 'over-represented' in the Nation's universities on the back of their own merit, then what does it mean for the numerous affirmative action programs for the not so successful minority groups? If one ethnic group bypass the limits of any quota system, then that means that white males should not have ceiling admission numers, which would in turn mean that many ethnic groups that have historically not be as competitive, such as blacks, hispanics, First Nations, will be even less represented. When dealing with quotas, affirmative action, or any other system based on ethnic demographics, it can only be all or nothing, and preferably nothing.
    The question is often asked, frequently with a negative connotation, if a given institution is too white. In a truly competitive system, the question would only be asked, is this institution too stupid, too incompetent, too stagnant. That would be the best question to ask.

  101. If you don't agree with McGuinty, you need to talk to him directly.
    Maclean is proposing University to admit students based on RACE. I am glad you don't agree with them.
    Actually education is a long term investment. You will be proud of your child being independent and pay for his own tuition to go to university. He will benefit from university education in the long run. don't worry too much.

  102. Helen. I don't agree with Dalton McGuinty on most topics and would love to have an audience with him and tell him what I think of him and his policies. It's not that I am opposed to Chinese Students getting the money it's anyone other than Ontario Taxpayers Kids. I don't care what country these kids are from, France, Germany, Italy, Swiss or any European country, they should not get a free education courtesy of Ontario taxpayers. I don't care if they took that money and gave it to a Chinese Canadian, Scottish Canadian, German Canadian, Indian Canadian etc….. Just as long as it is given to a Canadian, preferably an Ontarian.
    You are right I am proud of my son and what he has done and what he has paid for himself but he now faces years of paying off student loans.
    I take my hat off to these exceptionally smart Chinese students but in my opinion why doesn't the Chinese Government sponsor them.

  103. Marion. I really don't know. Just know he ended up borrowing quite a bit from Student Loans. He was not a party animal and was quite frugal with his expenses.

  104. Does it matter, everyone deserves a chance at university, you can't say that foreigners shouldn't be allowed, if they can do it then do it

  105. US top universities have granted more scholarship to foreign students. US also did a good job to keep the students after their graduation. These students have helped US to compete with all the rest in the world.
    Politicians are elected by tax payers. They are trying to do what's the best for Canada.
    He can explain this better to you

  106. A Step Forward for Fair Competition

    Last week, Canada's Competition Bureau began legal proceedings against Rogers Communications, Inc. Their decision came after a two-month long investigation into misleading claims made in advertising for their experimental brand, Chatr. If the Competition Bureau is successful in court, Rogers may have to pay $10 million in fines. On top of this potential financial penalty, however, I am pleased to note that the Bureau has asked that Rogers be ordered to immediately halt any misleading advertisements which claim that their brand Chatr has fewer dropped calls than any of the new entrants.

    Maclean really learned how to compete from its parent company.

    If Canadians pay less for their phone bills, they might be able to pay more for their tuition.

  107. A Step Forward for Fair Competition

    Last week, Canada's Competition Bureau began legal proceedings against Rogers Communications, Inc. Their decision came after a two-month long investigation into misleading claims made in advertising for their experimental brand, Chatr. If the Competition Bureau is successful in court, Rogers may have to pay $10 million in fines. On top of this potential financial penalty, however, I am pleased to note that the Bureau has asked that Rogers be ordered to immediately halt any misleading advertisements which claim that their brand Chatr has fewer dropped calls than any of the new entrants.

    Maclean really learned how to compete from its parent company.

    If Canadians pay less for their phone bills, they might be able to pay more for their tuition.

  108. I don't know that major accounting firm is doing a baby sitting job. I work for a public company. A major accounting firm just need to email us what files they need and we give them what they need. Nobody needs to take care of anybody in the process.
    How long had the Union protected GM for? Thanks to Union, Canadian government becomes the new shareholder. You have to face competition sooner or later.
    One of my neighbor got a double degree from University of Waterloo. She paid her own tuition by herself. She said she would only pay half of her kids' tuition so they know they should work hard in university instead of going party all the time. By the way. She is white. White Canadians are smart too.
    I don't understand why Maclearn tried to create problems between White Canadians and Asian Canadians. Canada has a good reputation of being nice and fair.

  109. Helen. if the Universities want to give a scholarship to a foreign student that's great as long as it comes out of the Universities funds and high profits and not the Ontario Treasury where our tax money is kept.

  110. I agree 100%. If they can do it then do it and PAY for it themselves or have their Government who will benefit the most pay for it.

  111. Billy, you are bang on. We have great students who can't get into our Med schools because we bring in foreign students before allowing our own the opportunity. Then we have the nerve to cry about our shortage of doctors. We have become a gutless society that can't stand up for our own. Enough is enough. Maybe we need the likes of Mayor elect Ford to run our universities

  112. While i've always sympathized with low-income families and military families, i also know universities are academically more enriched with Foreign Students – which include international researchers who help solve the world's toughest problems in medical research and other fields (the cure for cancer depends on this). That's why professors are also from all over the world. If you look at PhD programs, most professors will tell you, it's better to go to a foreign place. There's a reason for that – to challenge the intellect further. Foreign students (who pay 2-3x the tuition) seldom take up more than 10% of a university (and that includes PhD/Masters students and "world-class" researchers). While i agree low-income families need a boost, the question of foreign students is deeper than how many spots they take up in university. It impacts how good a university is.

  113. A foreign PhD student might have world-class knowledge on cancer research. That's one reason why a foreign student would be invited into a Canadian university. If we were to ban foreign students, we'd also be banning world class intellectual capital – how would Canada benefit from that? You would also need to extend your philosophy to world-class professors….if you look at the departments of universities there's likely a higher percentage of world-class professors – foreigners – than what you might see in students.

  114. The majority of students of Asian descent are Canadian. That's what's so off about the perception. Foreign students are typically capped at 10% at a school – and that includes Americans, French, Saudis and Mexican among other nationalities.
    http://www.atlas.iienetwork.org/?p=48032

  115. Lost in the debate – foreign students include world-class researchers (e.g. cancer research). A university's faculty is typically very international to benefit intellectual capital and the advancement of discovery. It's why professors come from many countries to benefit Canadian students.

    If you're going to complain about one student being from China in an average Canadian university class – are we also saying Canadians should not experience one person from such an influential nation on the world stage? How is Canada going to be world-class if we think like this?

  116. Lost in the debate – foreign students include world-class researchers (e.g. cancer research). A university's faculty is typically very international to benefit intellectual capital and the advancement of discovery. It's why professors come from many countries to benefit Canadian students.

    If you're going to complain about one student being from China in an average Canadian university class – are we also saying Canadians should not experience one person from such an influential nation on the world stage? How is Canada going to be world-class if we think like this?

    • they aren't complaining about ONE student from china, they're complaining about the classroom filled with students from China

      • And, with us paying for it.

      • If you looked at my other post – Canadian statistics show that foreign students only make up 11.7% of 1.67 million Canadian students in 2009-10. Students from China specifically only make up 2.99%. That's ONE student in a class of 34.

        That you consider more than that to be non-Canadian is why Chinese-Canadians have a beef with reader comments and this story. You think we are foreigners and not Canadian.

      • Do the math – see my comment below. Only 1 in 34 university students is from China, that's ONE student in an average class size.

  117. If you look at evidence (unlike Maclean's), you might find in 2009-10, there were 1.67 million Canadian students of which 11.7% were foreign students (which include world-class researchers). This figure includes Americans, Saudis, French and Mexicans. That number is not too different than 10-20 yrs ago. Why complain now?

    You might also notice that Canadian students as foreigners living abroad also take up a lot of spots in foreign countries:
    http://www.atlas.iienetwork.org/?p=48032

    Students from China in a Canadian university only take up 2.99% of Canadian university admissions. Why Maclean's hid this fact, i don't know. That's 1 seat in a class of 34. Is that really "Too Asian?"

  118. If you look at evidence (unlike Maclean's), you might find in 2009-10, there were 1.67 million Canadian students of which 11.7% were foreign students (which include world-class researchers). This figure includes Americans, Saudis, French and Mexicans. That number is not too different than 10-20 yrs ago. Why complain now?

    You might also notice that Canadian students as foreigners living abroad also take up a lot of spots in foreign countries:
    http://www.atlas.iienetwork.org/?p=48032

    Students from China in a Canadian university only take up 2.99% of Canadian university admissions. Why Maclean's hid this fact, i don't know. That's 1 seat in a class of 34. Is that really "Too Asian?"

    • We're talking about Chinese Canadians, not students from china, in general

      • Which comment of yours is real – that you're complaining about students from china (as per your other post) or that you're complaining of students who are Canadian who look Chinese?

  119. I don't have a problem with that in the least. Asian Canadians. My only point was the overly generous offer McGuinty made to China to have Chinese Students from China come to Canadian Universities on our dime.
    All I am saying is that money could or should be given to Canadian Citizens whether they be White, Black, Asian, Arab etc.. that may need assistance with University funds.

  120. Maclean, Stop defending your story. Be responsible to Canadians and apologize for what you have done. You make people think White Canadians are stupid and needs special favor to enter university. If you are a loser and couldn't compete with Asian students in university, you need to know every white Canadian are as stupid as you are. Not only your article hurt Asian Canadian but also all Canadians.

  121. Maclean, Stop defending your story. Be responsible to Canadians and apologize for what you have done. You make people think White Canadians are stupid and needs special favor to enter university. If you are a loser and couldn't compete with Asian students in university, you need to know every white Canadian are as stupid as you are. Not only your article hurt Asian Canadian but also all Canadians.

  122. You need to know NOT every white Canadian are as stupid as you are. There are many White Canadians work hard and get good results. Not as you claimed to go to university and get drank.

  123. You need to know NOT every white Canadian are as stupid as you are. There are many White Canadians work hard and get good results. Not as you claimed to go to university and get drank.

  124. I'm happy Macleans dealt with the issue. I have heard that Simon Fraser University has a high number of suicides and there is quite a high Asian population there. Also, I think that guy from Virginia tech that went ballistic was Asian with an extremely high achieving sister. Bottom line, I just wonder about the mental health of people who are encouraged to have perfect marks. A young Asian kid I worked with who had Aspergers (which I think the Virginia Tech guy had) was paid by his grandparents $5 bucks IF he got 100% on his tests. he was in grade two! He had grade 8 piano and was forced to go to Chinese school on the weekend. The poor kid was so stressed out. Finally, the parents understand that he is not academically inclined. I think the aunt is a doctor. Don't get ,e wrong, I encourage my kids to do their best but here in Canadian culture I think we value well-rounded individuals and good mental health.

  125. I'm happy Macleans dealt with the issue. I have heard that Simon Fraser University has a high number of suicides and there is quite a high Asian population there. Also, I think that guy from Virginia tech that went ballistic was Asian with an extremely high achieving sister. Bottom line, I just wonder about the mental health of people who are encouraged to have perfect marks. A young Asian kid I worked with who had Aspergers (which I think the Virginia Tech guy had) was paid by his grandparents $5 bucks IF he got 100% on his tests. he was in grade two! He had grade 8 piano and was forced to go to Chinese school on the weekend. The poor kid was so stressed out. Finally, the parents understand that he is not academically inclined. I think the aunt is a doctor. Don't get ,e wrong, I encourage my kids to do their best but here in Canadian culture I think we value well-rounded individuals and good mental health.

    • First of all, a lot of shootings and other violence-related incidents in North America is not caused by "Asians". The story from Virginia tech with the Asian kid going ballistic was probably one of very few that involved an Asian student going ballistic. Secondly, yes it does sound a bit ridiculous and I feel bad for the Asian kid as well but this is the culture the kid grew up in. Have you actually talked to the kid? Is he actually so stressed out as you put it? If you think about it Canadian parents make their kids go through soccer practices, hockey tournaments, swimming lessons plus most students have part-time jobs in order to save money for university. I'm pretty sure these kids are equally if not more stressed out than the Asian kid you talked about. Plus, most mentally unhealthy individuals I see at the hospital are "non-Asians" just to make my point. So, I wouldn't worry about Asian kids mental health but Canadian kids mental health! Canadian kids deserve more sympathy! It's not easy to be involved in so many extracurricular activities and social activities and still ahiceve well in school. What about paying off studnet loans once they graduate?

      • Of course I actually talked to the kid, I was his Ed assistant for God's sake! He actually said to me, " I need to get rid of one," meaning either all the piano or the Chinese school. I think he knew that he had no choice about the regular school. He was extremely stressed. It actually became very predictable as to his aggression around the time of the Chinese school exams. He would strike out at the other children. I totally agree with you that some children, irrespective of race/culture are involved in too many activities. I do think, however that people involved in education (teachers, Ed assistants, guidance counsellors etc) would tell you that the pressure Asian students face to get exceddingly high marks is immense. Do you actually have children? At my daughter's high school there is an International Bacalaureate program and since I went to the meeting with my child because she was considering it, I know a little about the issue. We were one of about 6 white people in a packed auditorium. My child ultimately decided not to do it and does very well in the regular program. HOWEVER, the admin is constantly stressing to these parents that it has to be their CHILD'S choice to go into IB, not theirs (we other parents see this because these kinds of things are discussed either at or at the beginning of the school c meeting. They have even developed a policy of not being able to drop IB at our school which must be based on the fact that they see a lot of kids coming in to it and they can't handle it, didn't want it in the first place or whatever. I 'm sorry but the Asian pressure to succeed is an issue and many educators, parents have seen it firsthand. It is a problem, and yes so is having a kid do too many extra-curriculars, but they are too different problems. Ask some teachers, Rosemary!

        • "Asian pressure to succeed is an issue"
          I don't understand how trying their best to become successful in life would be an issue.
          It has never been an issue in Canadian society and I don't see why it should be an issue now

          • O.k., Asian pressure to succeed to the point where it becomes very stressful for the person ( such as the above child). Several commenters who are Asian also noted that they found the pressure too much as well as being pressured to only go into sciences or business. I think the issue is maybe a bit subtler than the article presents. I think there are a lot of bright students (say their average is only 78 or 80 ish) and they are well rounded but they will not get into universities these days because the cut off marks are so high. I feel the article was a little insulting to white kids as being wild partiers. I'm sure there are some but not so many. They would probably get weeded out (debarred) and frankly it would serve them right.

          • You said some students can't get into universities because the cut off marks are so high… um.. well.. TRY HARDER DUH! Don't go around blaming other people for not getting into university

          • I think merit is more than who has a 99%. My child has marks in the mid to high 80's at a very tough school so I know what you mean about working hard,though.

          • some students dan't get into universities because the cut off marks are too high… um… TRY HARDER! the world can't accomodate for EVERYONE!

          • I hear that white people should stop having sex because every sex-crazed serial killer from Ted Bundy through Robert Pickton is white and obviously thinking about sex too much causes them to become serial killers. White people are just born serial killers.

            That's the racial logic you idiots are using.

    • Russell Williams, Paul Bernardo, and Robert Pickton are white. Therefore, white people are psychopathic murderers. Therefore, white people have a tendency to kill and rape. Therefore, white people should't be allowed to have any positions of power.

  126. It really is not the Canadian governments responsibility to ensure that all the low income housing famililies kids go into university, if that were the case, every kid in thie country will be enrolled in university and that would be ridiculous. I feel bad for your son but a lot of people bo through paying off debts like myself. Yes my parents were in the middle-low income criteria and I am a Canadian who had to work my way to go to university and when I see some groups (Chinese) getting everything for free I really do feel that they desrved it. I have not visited China myself but heard from many people of how living in China can be very stressful for students from all the pressure from the society for competition. Living in Canada itself is a privillege and as a Canadian I feel proud to work to go to university and proud to have other ethnic groups enrolled in Canadian univeristy for a better future. I hope I have not offended you in anyway but it's just my opinion.

  127. It really is not the Canadian governments responsibility to ensure that all the low income housing famililies kids go into university, if that were the case, every kid in thie country will be enrolled in university and that would be ridiculous. I feel bad for your son but a lot of people bo through paying off debts like myself. Yes my parents were in the middle-low income criteria and I am a Canadian who had to work my way to go to university and when I see some groups (Chinese) getting everything for free I really do feel that they desrved it. I have not visited China myself but heard from many people of how living in China can be very stressful for students from all the pressure from the society for competition. Living in Canada itself is a privillege and as a Canadian I feel proud to work to go to university and proud to have other ethnic groups enrolled in Canadian univeristy for a better future. I hope I have not offended you in anyway but it's just my opinion.

  128. JPA I would like to just point out that Med school does not allow foreign students to enroll. In Canada the student MUST be a Canadian to even consider going into Med school that goes with Pharmacy, Dentistry, and all the high-profile careers out there. Also I'm currently a Canadian student in U of M and 100% students in Med school are Canadian and mostly "white" so I don't understand why you and some other folks are complaining about foreign student s and getting into Med schools because they CAN"T! Candian university system does not allow them to!

  129. First of all, a lot of shootings and other violence-related incidents in North America is not caused by "Asians". The story from Virginia tech with the Asian kid going ballistic was probably one of very few that involved an Asian student going ballistic. Secondly, yes it does sound a bit ridiculous and I feel bad for the Asian kid as well but this is the culture the kid grew up in. Have you actually talked to the kid? Is he actually so stressed out as you put it? If you think about it Canadian parents make their kids go through soccer practices, hockey tournaments, swimming lessons plus most students have part-time jobs in order to save money for university. I'm pretty sure these kids are equally if not more stressed out than the Asian kid you talked about. Plus, most mentally unhealthy individuals I see at the hospital are "non-Asians" just to make my point. So, I wouldn't worry about Asian kids mental health but Canadian kids mental health! Canadian kids deserve more sympathy! It's not easy to be involved in so many extracurricular activities and social activities and still ahiceve well in school. What about paying off studnet loans once they graduate?

  130. Of course I actually talked to the kid, I was his Ed assistant for God's sake! He actually said to me, " I need to get rid of one," meaning either all the piano or the Chinese school. I think he knew that he had no choice about the regular school. He was extremely stressed. It actually became very predictable as to his aggression around the time of the Chinese school exams. He would strike out at the other children. I totally agree with you that some children, irrespective of race/culture are involved in too many activities. I do think, however that people involved in education (teachers, Ed assistants, guidance counsellors etc) would tell you that the pressure Asian students face to get exceddingly high marks is immense. Do you actually have children? At my daughter's high school there is an International Bacalaureate program and since I went to the meeting with my child because she was considering it, I know a little about the issue. We were one of about 6 white people in a packed auditorium. My child ultimately decided not to do it and does very well in the regular program. HOWEVER, the admin is constantly stressing to these parents that it has to be their CHILD'S choice to go into IB, not theirs (we other parents see this because these kinds of things are discussed either at or at the beginning of the school c meeting. They have even developed a policy of not being able to drop IB at our school which must be based on the fact that they see a lot of kids coming in to it and they can't handle it, didn't want it in the first place or whatever. I 'm sorry but the Asian pressure to succeed is an issue and many educators, parents have seen it firsthand. It is a problem, and yes so is having a kid do too many extra-curriculars, but they are too different problems. Ask some teachers, Rosemary!

  131. Sorry, I see that it's Rosaline, not Rosemary. I just wanted to add that
    I really don't even think the best doctors are the ones who have a perfect 4.0 from their science degree. Maybe someone with a 3.4 average who loves people and medicine and is well rounded (but not frantic) would be better at it. I mean, really, doctors are almost like coordinators nowadays, they refer on to specialists.

  132. Sorry, I see that it's Rosaline, not Rosemary. I just wanted to add that
    I really don't even think the best doctors are the ones who have a perfect 4.0 from their science degree. Maybe someone with a 3.4 average who loves people and medicine and is well rounded (but not frantic) would be better at it. I mean, really, doctors are almost like coordinators nowadays, they refer on to specialists.

    • Medical skills – when it regards remedying fatal diseases such as cancer – have nothing to do how doctors love people. People skills might make you feel better, but they won't heal you. You can ask any family who lost loved ones. We want the best researchers and technicians for cancer – not the best people skills. I actually dont even care if the person can't speak English if he/she is a rocket scientist in the field of cancer.

      • agreed well said

      • You are missing the point. While performance in the actual medical school probably does matter, I would suggest that the person who can think outside the box and is well rounded (say they have a 3.5 average in their science degree, may end up being the better doctor than a very rote person with few people skills but has a 4.0 in their science degree. Just my opinion.

        • Ever been in a hospital? There are many world-class doctors who speak many languages and many patients who speak many languages.

          I dont see how lower grades make you a better doctor – what is your scientific proof. The top doctors i have seen or read about have high GPAs and these include doctors who advance the battle against cancer, AIDS, etc. If your philosophy were true, there would be a lot of doctors out of business and very few medical breakthroughs. If you read the New England Medical Journal – the problems they tackle are not trivial.

          I also want to note there are many students with high GPAs who are well-rounded. The top student at UBC during my year, went to Princeton, skipped a grade, and i swear i saw him dancing 3 nights a week. His average was 99%. And he was not Asian. Social skills have less to do with GPAs (or race) and more to do with personality.

          • I also want to note my brother who skipped a few grades, finished top in his school…can play Yngwie Malsteen on guitar and has played hockey vs NHL players regularly. This stereotyping is bogus.

        • I don't know about you, but if you look at any recent qualification for getting into a graduate medical program (which is what is needed for any doctor, people loving or not), it's going to be more than just a 3.5 average. Much more. Sure, other qualities matter, but only because there's about 300 people with 90% averages applying and only about 40 accepted. That's where they're looking for "well-rounded" -ness. They're not going to say "oh gee, this one's got an 80 average, but that's okay, he's so people loving." I think you should take a look at the admission standards.

    • Do you know anything about what doctors do? These specialists that doctors are referring their patients to, who do you think they are? DOCTORS… embarassing for you jenn.

  133. I bet a lot of teachers and school counsellors would back her up-even in the younger aged kids!

  134. So, Macleans editors, it's everyone else's fault for not understanding — that's why your magazine and "too asian" will be camped together at the peak of search engine mountain for years to come? How brave to change the headline, then, and sacrifice all those potential hits.

    Of course, prevaricating on the apology is a good way to drag out the controversy, so slick move there.

  135. So, Macleans editors, it's everyone else's fault for not understanding — that's why your magazine and "too asian" will be camped together at the peak of search engine mountain for years to come? How brave to change the headline, then, and sacrifice all those potential hits.

    Of course, prevaricating on the apology is a good way to drag out the controversy, so slick move there.

    • If you have looked at the comments there have actually been a number of Asian kids who verify the fact that there is immense pressure to succeed and go only into certain fields and that it can take a toll on a kid's mental health. I say the article was timely and bravely tackled.

      • And poorly titled, and then badly managed. It's in line with the Bonhomme strategy. When a company makes the same "mistake" more than once, it's because they like the results.

        I don't blame the interview subjects for this, or discount their experiences. I just think the magazine consciously chose an inflammatory headline — though of course I have no evidence beyond recent precedent, and it's possible it was just a bad idea.

        But yes, at least the comments have presented the chance for more stories of people directly affected to be heard.

      • Asians are not only people in the category of "pressure to succeed." This is blatant racial targeting and even distorts reality. Students who commit suicide due to pressure at university are mostly not Asian.

  136. If you have looked at the comments there have actually been a number of Asian kids who verify the fact that there is immense pressure to succeed and go only into certain fields and that it can take a toll on a kid's mental health. I say the article was timely and bravely tackled.

  137. "Asian pressure to succeed is an issue"
    I don't understand how trying their best to become successful in life would be an issue.
    It has never been an issue in Canadian society and I don't see why it should be an issue now

  138. Read UW students' reaction to Maclean's lie.

    Are we actually ‘Too Asian'? A look into the MacLean's article and the stir behind it.
    Jon Radice – 4A Chemical
    Posted on: November 17, 2010
    Is our school ‘Too Asian'? I don't think so. We may not be the most boisterous school, but we are a school that is focused on academics and hard work. Even for the partier at heart, you can always mingle with Laurier students if you need your fix of a ‘White School'. An increase of any race is only a problem once social chasms begin to form due to alienation of that group. A focus should be put in place to integrate students better, and promote cross-cultural communication.
    http://iwarrior.uwaterloo.ca/2010/11/17/are-we-ac

  139. Read UW students' reaction to Maclean's lie.

    Are we actually ‘Too Asian'? A look into the MacLean's article and the stir behind it.
    Jon Radice – 4A Chemical
    Posted on: November 17, 2010
    Is our school ‘Too Asian'? I don't think so. We may not be the most boisterous school, but we are a school that is focused on academics and hard work. Even for the partier at heart, you can always mingle with Laurier students if you need your fix of a ‘White School'. An increase of any race is only a problem once social chasms begin to form due to alienation of that group. A focus should be put in place to integrate students better, and promote cross-cultural communication.
    http://iwarrior.uwaterloo.ca/2010/11/17/are-we-ac

  140. Canada is to Asian!

  141. Canada is to Asian!

    • you mean "Canada is too Asian!"

  142. Sorry, Macleans, but this new editorial is simply dishonest. Your original piece ignorantly placed blame for racism on those experiencing it (i.e. as though Asian Canadian and Asian students are to blame for the racism against them depicted in your article):
    "Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don't quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts. Likely that is a good thing. And yet, that meritocratic process results, especially in Canada's elite university programs, in a concentration of Asian students."
    What are you scared of? It's fear-mongering racist attitudes like your 'Too Asian' article that lead to isolation and social silos on our university campuses. The presence of racialized people doing well in university is not the problem – racism is. Get your head straight.

    sincerely,
    One disgusted white reader in Vancouver.

  143. Sorry, Macleans, but this new editorial is simply dishonest. Your original piece ignorantly placed blame for racism on those experiencing it (i.e. as though Asian Canadian and Asian students are to blame for the racism against them depicted in your article):
    "Canadian universities, apart from highly competitive professional programs and faculties, don't quiz applicants the same way, and rely entirely on transcripts. Likely that is a good thing. And yet, that meritocratic process results, especially in Canada's elite university programs, in a concentration of Asian students."
    What are you scared of? It's fear-mongering racist attitudes like your 'Too Asian' article that lead to isolation and social silos on our university campuses. The presence of racialized people doing well in university is not the problem – racism is. Get your head straight.

    sincerely,
    One disgusted white reader in Vancouver.

  144. you mean "Canada is too Asian!"

  145. And poorly titled, and then badly managed. It's in line with the Bonhomme strategy. When a company makes the same "mistake" more than once, it's because they like the results.

    I don't blame the interview subjects for this, or discount their experiences. I just think the magazine consciously chose an inflammatory headline — though of course I have no evidence beyond recent precedent, and it's possible it was just a bad idea.

    But yes, at least the comments have presented the chance for more stories of people directly affected to be heard.

  146. O.k., Asian pressure to succeed to the point where it becomes very stressful for the person ( such as the above child). Several commenters who are Asian also noted that they found the pressure too much as well as being pressured to only go into sciences or business. I think the issue is maybe a bit subtler than the article presents. I think there are a lot of bright students (say their average is only 78 or 80 ish) and they are well rounded but they will not get into universities these days because the cut off marks are so high. I feel the article was a little insulting to white kids as being wild partiers. I'm sure there are some but not so many. They would probably get weeded out (debarred) and frankly it would serve them right.

  147. The US situation is entirely different for historical reasons from that in Canada, so it might make sense for Maclean's to look more carefully at the US situation before drawing sweeping conclusions on the basis of little evidence.

  148. The US situation is entirely different for historical reasons from that in Canada, so it might make sense for Maclean's to look more carefully at the US situation before drawing sweeping conclusions on the basis of little evidence.

  149. How you can possibly use a killer to stereotype Asians is beyond my comprehension. With your kind of thinking, we should use Marc Lepine to reflect non-Asians. Does that even make sense?

  150. Asians are not only people in the category of "pressure to succeed." This is blatant racial targeting and even distorts reality. Students who commit suicide due to pressure at university are mostly not Asian.

  151. Medical skills – when it regards remedying fatal diseases such as cancer – have nothing to do how doctors love people. People skills might make you feel better, but they won't heal you. You can ask any family who lost loved ones. We want the best researchers and technicians for cancer – not the best people skills. I actually dont even care if the person can't speak English if he/she is a rocket scientist in the field of cancer.

  152. I'm not familiar with the McGuinty offer, but i do know universities (in any country) try to invite the brightest international minds to universities with scholarships and grants. That's a universal practice to attract the best researchers to your school, so your school benefits. That's no different than recruiting a football player, for example, so your team wins, but more for intellectual/research gains.

  153. You might be right about that. Until 1947, Chinese born in Canada were not allowed to be Canadian or vote. That barred them from professions such as medicine, accounting, dentistry and a few other fields due to a lack of Canadian citizenship.

  154. Most accounting firms in Vancouver have an Asia-Pacific division. Without an Asia-Pacific knowledge base, there would be far less major accounting firms in Vancouver. It's a significant chunk of business.

  155. How does one determine "Too Asian?"

    If you could, clarify how US race-based admissions can differentiate between Cliff Lee and Bruce Lee? Are you saying if you look "too Asian" that's how race-based admissions are determined? That universities require pictures for an abstract racial determination or that there's an actual check box for your race during application? Or are we talking about DNA profiling? What if you are mixed like much of Toronto? Tell me how race-based admissions are determined (if they are real).

    What formula is this?

  156. How does one determine "Too Asian?"

    If you could, clarify how US race-based admissions can differentiate between Cliff Lee and Bruce Lee? Are you saying if you look "too Asian" that's how race-based admissions are determined? That universities require pictures for an abstract racial determination or that there's an actual check box for your race during application? Or are we talking about DNA profiling? What if you are mixed like much of Toronto? Tell me how race-based admissions are determined (if they are real).

    What formula is this?

    • And since when is an American source, the primary source for a Canadian story?

      • Well said! American sources aren't to be trusted to be most reliable and unbiased!

    • Had you actually read the article, you would realize that many prestigious US schools, especially the Ivy League require in-person interviews and detailed personal statements as part of the application process. It's a much more involved process than Canadian university admissions, and one that gets at the cultural background of applicants. Also, because they have many fully private institutions, admission procedures can be culturally/religiously biased without much fuss…consider a university like Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, where you have to write an essay about how your values fit with the school's mission of producing "Christ-centred" graduates.

      Perhaps you should read and comprehend before spouting reactionary nonsense.

      • I applied to Harvard, and in person interviews are only for specific cases (special situations)…you can't possibly interview 50,000 applicants. Even in person, you cannot identify someone's race. My kid is part Scottish – does that make her non-Asian enough or "Too Asian"?

  157. Were your sources fictitious who told you "race is becoming a conversation on Canadian campuses"?

    How do we know your anonymous sources are real? One source Nikki Best is already questioning how she was "quoted."

    I don't see campus papers (including Ms. Findlay's campus paper) or tweets by university students on Twitter validating your belief that "race is becoming a conversation on Canadian campuses." I couldn't find one other media outlet validating your facts (national, local or on campus).

  158. Were your sources fictitious who told you "race is becoming a conversation on Canadian campuses"?

    How do we know your anonymous sources are real? One source Nikki Best is already questioning how she was "quoted."

    I don't see campus papers (including Ms. Findlay's campus paper) or tweets by university students on Twitter validating your belief that "race is becoming a conversation on Canadian campuses." I couldn't find one other media outlet validating your facts (national, local or on campus).

    • Are you saying it took 2 people (and maybe more) to write this one line:

      “Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so,” reporters Findlay and Köhler wrote.

  159. Are you saying it took 2 people (and maybe more) to write this one line:

    “Canadian institutions operate as pure meritocracies when it comes to admissions, and admirably so,” reporters Findlay and Köhler wrote.

  160. If you ask the question, “Too Asian?” are you not implying there's a problem with being Asian in university?

    If you lead your story with the opinions of anonymous people who have a problem with Asians, are you not implying that's what matters to you most?

  161. If you ask the question, “Too Asian?” are you not implying there's a problem with being Asian in university?

    If you lead your story with the opinions of anonymous people who have a problem with Asians, are you not implying that's what matters to you most?

  162. And since when is an American source, the primary source for a Canadian story?

  163. You said some students can't get into universities because the cut off marks are so high… um.. well.. TRY HARDER DUH! Don't go around blaming other people for not getting into university

  164. agreed well said

  165. some students dan't get into universities because the cut off marks are too high… um… TRY HARDER! the world can't accomodate for EVERYONE!

  166. For some people commenting, do yourself a favour and please learn the true meaning of terms such as "affirmative action" and "equality of opportunity", also learn their history and what these words are trying to promote. Please avoid the thinking that these words and policies surrounding these words are trying to "prevent white people from succeeding". That type of thinking creates misconceptions which only promotes racial hatred against visible minorities.

    As for the article, and for reality. You can get into some universities in Canada with a B- average for certain programs. Is a 70% asking for too much? I guess that question should be left to university administrators?? Your thoughts?

  167. For some people commenting, do yourself a favour and please learn the true meaning of terms such as "affirmative action" and "equality of opportunity", also learn their history and what these words are trying to promote. Please avoid the thinking that these words and policies surrounding these words are trying to "prevent white people from succeeding". That type of thinking creates misconceptions which only promotes racial hatred against visible minorities.

    As for the article, and for reality. You can get into some universities in Canada with a B- average for certain programs. Is a 70% asking for too much? I guess that question should be left to university administrators?? Your thoughts?

  168. In all the comments, I have yet to read this point: Not all Asians are academically inclined, not all Asians are smart as hell, and not all Asians even WANT to go to university. Asians are human beings. Human beings who just tend to study a little bit more. That's all. It's not like there's anything in our genes that sets us apart from the rest of the human population in terms of brain power. Hell, my high school Math teacher is getting close to retiring, he barely has any hair left, and he's white. And he runs mental circles around all of us Asian students with his solutions, often lapping several of us before we even begin to see the point.

  169. In all the comments, I have yet to read this point: Not all Asians are academically inclined, not all Asians are smart as hell, and not all Asians even WANT to go to university. Asians are human beings. Human beings who just tend to study a little bit more. That's all. It's not like there's anything in our genes that sets us apart from the rest of the human population in terms of brain power. Hell, my high school Math teacher is getting close to retiring, he barely has any hair left, and he's white. And he runs mental circles around all of us Asian students with his solutions, often lapping several of us before we even begin to see the point.

  170. Well said! American sources aren't to be trusted to be most reliable and unbiased!

  171. i only had a problem with the amount of stereotyping in the original article, but now this just makes everything worse. Are they seriously now pushing the blame onto us, saying that we misunderstood their intentions on how universities should select students, other than apologizing for their own blatant stereotyping?
    congrats macleans, you've sunk even lower.

  172. i only had a problem with the amount of stereotyping in the original article, but now this just makes everything worse. Are they seriously now pushing the blame onto us, saying that we misunderstood their intentions on how universities should select students, other than apologizing for their own blatant stereotyping?
    congrats macleans, you've sunk even lower.

  173. I hear that white people should stop having sex because every sex-crazed serial killer from Ted Bundy through Robert Pickton is white and obviously thinking about sex too much causes them to become serial killers. White people are just born serial killers.

    That's the racial logic you idiots are using.

  174. You are missing the point. While performance in the actual medical school probably does matter, I would suggest that the person who can think outside the box and is well rounded (say they have a 3.5 average in their science degree, may end up being the better doctor than a very rote person with few people skills but has a 4.0 in their science degree. Just my opinion.

  175. I think merit is more than who has a 99%. My child has marks in the mid to high 80's at a very tough school so I know what you mean about working hard,though.

  176. May be higher scores and hard work is hazardous to your health, as some one suggested, what is twisted mind, should find better excuses.

  177. May be higher scores and hard work is hazardous to your health, as some one suggested, what is twisted mind, should find better excuses.

  178. I just read the link you provided and Professor Yu speaks of relief at being back at his multiple-cultural home. He does admit things could be better and I think he's right. My child's school is seriously 80% Asian and my child reports that most, not all though, of the Asian kids speak Mandarin and Cantonese, etc. In the halls and don't integrate a lot. I don't see that as being very assimilated into our culture. I know this is very politically incorrect to say but dam it I think this could be better.

  179. I just read the link you provided and Professor Yu speaks of relief at being back at his multiple-cultural home. He does admit things could be better and I think he's right. My child's school is seriously 80% Asian and my child reports that most, not all though, of the Asian kids speak Mandarin and Cantonese, etc. In the halls and don't integrate a lot. I don't see that as being very assimilated into our culture. I know this is very politically incorrect to say but dam it I think this could be better.

    • What is "your" or "our" culture. Seems like there's a lack of definition. In Harlem, i would imagine most students are "Too Black?" So is that a problem?

  180. I think the problem is not in universities being "too Asian", "too Chinese" or "too Arab".
    The problem is in Canadian education system. High school is not capable anymore to provide a good education.
    Political correctness is taiken over comon sense and teachers in high school are not allowed to fail any kid!
    If there is no discipline in school and kids are not forced to study at all. Kids who graduate most of high schools
    do not know anything so how do they supposed to get admision to the university?

  181. check out former cbc host Tetsuro Shigematsu's video response to the article on youtube. it's awesome.

  182. Had you actually read the article, you would realize that many prestigious US schools, especially the Ivy League require in-person interviews and detailed personal statements as part of the application process. It's a much more involved process than Canadian university admissions, and one that gets at the cultural background of applicants. Also, because they have many fully private institutions, admission procedures can be culturally/religiously biased without much fuss…consider a university like Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, where you have to write an essay about how your values fit with the school's mission of producing "Christ-centred" graduates.

    Perhaps you should read and comprehend before spouting reactionary nonsense.

  183. I can't believe that fully two weeks after this article was posted, people are still completely missing the point. While I did find the headline to be a bit sensationalist, and I was a bit confused by the lack of a clear definition of what was meant by Asian students. Did the authors mean Asian-Canadians, or international students from Asian countries, or both, or just those of Chinese/Japanese/Korean ancestry? That is still not clear to me.

    However, with that said, I feel this is a relevant issue worthy of discussion. If there is an overrepresentation of Asian-Canadian students at certain institutions and in certain academic programs, this is relevant to student recruiters and admissions officers as they try to attract and admit top students. Also, while we clearly are not comfortable discussing it, there are perceptions of certain institutions, and generalizations about ethnic groups, and these do influence the decisions students make. Choosing an undergraduate school is not entirely about academics–one must choose a place where they will spend a happy and healthy 4 years of their life. If students are choosing not to attend schools because they feel the social atmosphere is diminished because it is "too Asian", this reflects a stereotype that must be challenged and racial tensions that must be addressed by those who work in student life. If, as the article suggests, Asian students (whatever is meant by that) are underrepresented in student government and extracurricular clubs, Student Unions need to work to better serve them.

    I would also posit that this has nothing to do with competition for university seats, unless we are talking about the absolute most competitive university programs. Essentially anyone with the financial means and passing high school grades can win entry into just about any university program at any institution in Canada.

  184. Macleans editorial board: "Some of our best friends are Asian…"

  185. Macleans editorial board: "Some of our best friends are Asian…"

    • Wonder how many friends would make one too many and be "Too Asian?"

  186. Wonder how many friends would make one too many and be "Too Asian?"

  187. It's hypocritical for someone to say there's over-representation of Asians if you also don't say there's over-representation of women/men in nursing or engineering (for example). And if you think like that, that's exactly how Marc Lepine thought.

    I also dont hear anyone saying there's under-representation of Asians in media (see Maclean's).

    • it's self-serving if you only look at Asian representation at universities.

    • I didn't suggest either of those things. There's absolutely no need to point out that men are overrepresented in Sciences and Engineering and that women are overrepresented in Nursing and Nutrition/Dietetics, because it is well-established. We also know that First Nations are underrepresented in higher education in general, and few would argue that it's racist to point that out. However, we still need to know the demographic makeup of our institutions and academic programs to better serve everyone's needs. I also wasn't suggesting we only look at the demographics as they relate to Asian (again, however we're defining that) students, but that we need to look at how demographic shifts can affect enrollment and engagement in student life.

      Also, the Lepine comment just shows your absurd intellectual laziness. Equating wanting an open dialogue on ethnic and cultural issues in higher education with being a mass murderer makes me lose a lot of faith in the quality of people taking part in the discourse on this issue.

      • Universities are not supposed to serve "everyone's needs." Universities set standards for achievement. There's a big difference between setting standards and serving “everyone's needs.” Not "everyone" succeeds in university.

        • Again, you're responding to an argument I'm not making. In the classroom, yes, we need to set a standard and a curriculum that corresponds to what students in that field need to learn, and maintain the level of academic rigour regardless of the ethnic/cultural makeup of the student body. However, in terms of student services, there is a need to meet the unique needs of the existing student body. If the demographics are changing, then changes to existing services might be needed. My perspective is somewhat limited, as the department I teach in is quite diverse, but my experience has been that Chinese international students in particular are not well-served by existing student services, and that they do experience cultural tensions that other international students may not. The responsibilities of a university don't end at the classroom.

          I have also never suggested that anyone is "tak(ing) spots" from anyone, though others have. I am merely suggesting that there are social implications to demographic change in universities, and that we need to acknowledge these rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

          • My father is a professor and has regularly dealt with students from China (for decades in more than one country). Never once has one student said there's a problem with services. What's the problem no one seems to be saying?

        • I am quoting you so how am i not responding to your comment? A good argument only includes what's relevant to the argument.

      • If you subtract the fact that Marc Lepine was a murderer, his beliefs were that Ecole Polytechnic was "too female" in engineering. Lepine felt women took spots from men.Men who think like this are uncomfortable with women or social changes. Less the killing spree, his beliefs were quite analogous to comments i have read and sentiments in this story. Show me where I'm wrong.

        • Lepine (b. Gamil Gharbi, the son of an Algerian-born businessman who was "abusive and contemptuous of women", Wiki) is hardly representative of the readers commenting on this article. Boadz is simply saying, not unreasonably, that an open and honest discussion of such topics is far healthier for a society than refusing to look at it at all or sugar-coating the dicussion to a point where nothing of worth is said.
          The very name given to the American approach, "affirmative action", would arouse my suspicion immediately even if I had no idea what it was about. "Affirmative" is vaguely positive sounding, and "action" suggests that something is being done. Great – the name translates to "we are going to do something vaguely positive". That smacks of.deliberate obfuscation. Far better to simply call it "race based selection" and then have an open debate as to why it is deemed necessary. (By the way, I'm not entirely against it, but I would think that the approach would yield better results if it concentrated more on improving the preparation of disadvantaged minorities rather than simply selectively lowering the bar.)

          • I never said Marc Lepine is like anyone in personality or behaviour. I said his beliefs were analogous. He believed a specific demographic was over-represented in engineering and took spots of people of his "demographic." Show me how his beliefs are different – you seem to be pointing more at his background, personality or behavior.

          • This is hardly a discussion if it starts with "Too Asian?"

  188. It's hypocritical for someone to say there's over-representation of Asians if you also don't say there's over-representation of women/men in nursing or engineering (for example). And if you think like that, that's exactly how Marc Lepine thought.

    I also dont hear anyone saying there's under-representation of Asians in media (see Maclean's).

  189. it's self-serving if you only look at Asian representation at universities.

  190. What is "your" or "our" culture. Seems like there's a lack of definition. In Harlem, i would imagine most students are "Too Black?" So is that a problem?

  191. Ever been in a hospital? There are many world-class doctors who speak many languages and many patients who speak many languages.

    I dont see how lower grades make you a better doctor – what is your scientific proof. The top doctors i have seen or read about have high GPAs and these include doctors who advance the battle against cancer, AIDS, etc. If your philosophy were true, there would be a lot of doctors out of business and very few medical breakthroughs. If you read the New England Medical Journal – the problems they tackle are not trivial.

    I also want to note there are many students with high GPAs who are well-rounded. The top student at UBC during my year, went to Princeton, skipped a grade, and i swear i saw him dancing 3 nights a week. His average was 99%. And he was not Asian. Social skills have less to do with GPAs (or race) and more to do with personality.

  192. I also want to note my brother who skipped a few grades, finished top in his school…can play Yngwie Malsteen on guitar and has played hockey vs NHL players regularly. This stereotyping is bogus.

  193. I applied to Harvard, and in person interviews are only for specific cases (special situations)…you can't possibly interview 50,000 applicants. Even in person, you cannot identify someone's race. My kid is part Scottish – does that make her non-Asian enough or "Too Asian"?

  194. UBC history professor from Stephanie Findlay's university (who also taught at UCLA for 12 years) calls her story angle "an outright lie…invented out of fantasy."

    He goes further to say, "Let's just call this what it is—bull****"

    He writes that Maclean's twisted the original US story to mean something else: "Except for a few exclusive Ivies in the 1980s and 1990s, no school in the U.S. wants `less' Asian American students; in fact they are considered prize students to be recruited…"

    "…there was never any such thing as a race-based admission policy for Asian Americans. "
    http://www.straight.com/article-361680/vancouver/

  195. UBC history professor from Stephanie Findlay's university (who also taught at UCLA for 12 years) calls her story angle "an outright lie…invented out of fantasy."

    He goes further to say, "Let's just call this what it is—bull****"

    He writes that Maclean's twisted the original US story to mean something else: "Except for a few exclusive Ivies in the 1980s and 1990s, no school in the U.S. wants `less' Asian American students; in fact they are considered prize students to be recruited…"

    "…there was never any such thing as a race-based admission policy for Asian Americans. "
    http://www.straight.com/article-361680/vancouver/

    • Opinions aside, i'm just wondering about the facts. Who is telling the truth – Maclean's or a UBC/UCLA professor? Right now, it's hard to give Maclean's the benefit of the doubt because one source (Nikki Best) has questioned how she was quoted, anonymous sources have not validated their quotes (or surfaced anonymously since), and no media outlet outside of Maclean's is verifying any of the facts in this story.

  196. Opinions aside, i'm just wondering about the facts. Who is telling the truth – Maclean's or a UBC/UCLA professor? Right now, it's hard to give Maclean's the benefit of the doubt because one source (Nikki Best) has questioned how she was quoted, anonymous sources have not validated their quotes (or surfaced anonymously since), and no media outlet outside of Maclean's is verifying any of the facts in this story.

  197. I didn't suggest either of those things. There's absolutely no need to point out that men are overrepresented in Sciences and Engineering and that women are overrepresented in Nursing and Nutrition/Dietetics, because it is well-established. We also know that First Nations are underrepresented in higher education in general, and few would argue that it's racist to point that out. However, we still need to know the demographic makeup of our institutions and academic programs to better serve everyone's needs. I also wasn't suggesting we only look at the demographics as they relate to Asian (again, however we're defining that) students, but that we need to look at how demographic shifts can affect enrollment and engagement in student life.

    Also, the Lepine comment just shows your absurd intellectual laziness. Equating wanting an open dialogue on ethnic and cultural issues in higher education with being a mass murderer makes me lose a lot of faith in the quality of people taking part in the discourse on this issue.

  198. Canada.

    If you're a minority and you do something bad, it's pinned on your race, and it's unacceptable.

    If you're a minority and do something good (like getting good grade), it's pinned on your race, and it's unacceptable.

    Hypocrites.

  199. Canada.

    If you're a minority and you do something bad, it's pinned on your race, and it's unacceptable.

    If you're a minority and do something good (like getting good grade), it's pinned on your race, and it's unacceptable.

    Hypocrites.

  200. It's true that foreign students pay more in tuition but that only equals what universities get from domestic students after you add government subsidies. Foreign students consume the full amount of value that they pay in tuition fees, it is not as though they subsidize anyone elses education. Foreign students actually cost our public purse more money because often they use their status as students to become landed immigrants and then their fees drop down to domestic levels. At that point, they're getting funded by the tax payer but have the advantage that their parents never paid a dime in taxes so they become a drain on the system. There is a net financial loss to foreign students for the public purse, they do not subsidize the education of domestic students.

  201. Canada, though Maclean's omitted this, did have race-based admissions. Asians * (* born in Canada) were banned from university faculties referenced in this article until 1947 because Asians* were not deemed "Canadian." We've had this conversation before. So why have it again? What's different this time round?

  202. Canada, though Maclean's omitted this, did have race-based admissions. Asians * (* born in Canada) were banned from university faculties referenced in this article until 1947 because Asians* were not deemed "Canadian." We've had this conversation before. So why have it again? What's different this time round?

  203. If Maclean's is implying there should be less Asians in sciences and more in the Arts, is that also suggesting that if many Asians apply to J-school, Maclean's will hire one? Is Maclean's also saying more Asians will be accepted into Canadian TV shows and movies? And if so, at what point will it be "Too Asian?"

  204. If Maclean's is implying there should be less Asians in sciences and more in the Arts, is that also suggesting that if many Asians apply to J-school, Maclean's will hire one? Is Maclean's also saying more Asians will be accepted into Canadian TV shows and movies? And if so, at what point will it be "Too Asian?"

  205. Universities are not supposed to serve "everyone's needs." Universities set standards for achievement. There's a big difference between setting standards and serving “everyone's needs.” Not "everyone" succeeds in university.

  206. Yeah, I'm surprised by the 180. As an immigrant (at an early age), and someone who has experienced this parental piggybacking to a high degree, I think that the previous article was spot on, and I'm disappointed by the (almost) retraction. I can testify that the piggybacking occurs, that it's a CULTURAL (not a RACIAL) thing, and that it IS unfair across the board that people with affluent parents or overly supportive parents go to universities where they are very, very ill-suited to prosper, as opposed to someone from a less affluent family who understands independence more. I have watched a lot of friends, or family friends, fall completely apart in university without the support of their parents, who had been essentially propping them up. Such people are often ill-suited for the real world, but get into really good universities or really good programs anyway.

    • Yes, I believe in high standards and doing well but competing so hard as to cause too much stress is not something I'm comfortable with as a parent.

      • I don't care what background you're from, but the truth is that despite this "too much stress" that you are referring to, if you think that it's "too much" then there are plenty of other kids who are going to be taking your spot in university. Stop complaining and work harder… your performance in university is about the grades, and that's only going to be dependent on how you do in your courses. Sure, your EXPERIENCE is related to a lot of other things, such as your character, how you decide to spend your extra time, how much you decide to drink, etc etc… but there's no denying that your performance is through grades. And if you can't work hard in getting high school standards, how are you supposed to perform in university? Why go to university if you aren't going to be working hard and studying? If you're going for an experience it sure as hell is a lot of money to be paying for the "experience."

  207. Yeah, I'm surprised by the 180. As an immigrant (at an early age), and someone who has experienced this parental piggybacking to a high degree, I think that the previous article was spot on, and I'm disappointed by the (almost) retraction. I can testify that the piggybacking occurs, that it's a CULTURAL (not a RACIAL) thing, and that it IS unfair across the board that people with affluent parents or overly supportive parents go to universities where they are very, very ill-suited to prosper, as opposed to someone from a less affluent family who understands independence more. I have watched a lot of friends, or family friends, fall completely apart in university without the support of their parents, who had been essentially propping them up. Such people are often ill-suited for the real world, but get into really good universities or really good programs anyway.

  208. If you subtract the fact that Marc Lepine was a murderer, his beliefs were that Ecole Polytechnic was "too female" in engineering. Lepine felt women took spots from men.Men who think like this are uncomfortable with women or social changes. Less the killing spree, his beliefs were quite analogous to comments i have read and sentiments in this story. Show me where I'm wrong.

  209. Lepine (b. Gamil Gharbi, the son of an Algerian-born businessman who was "abusive and contemptuous of women", Wiki) is hardly representative of the readers commenting on this article. Boadz is simply saying, not unreasonably, that an open and honest discussion of such topics is far healthier for a society than refusing to look at it at all or sugar-coating the dicussion to a point where nothing of worth is said.
    The very name given to the American approach, "affirmative action", would arouse my suspicion immediately even if I had no idea what it was about. "Affirmative" is vaguely positive sounding, and "action" suggests that something is being done. Great – the name translates to "we are going to do something vaguely positive". That smacks of.deliberate obfuscation. Far better to simply call it "race based selection" and then have an open debate as to why it is deemed necessary. (By the way, I'm not entirely against it, but I would think that the approach would yield better results if it concentrated more on improving the preparation of disadvantaged minorities rather than simply selectively lowering the bar.)

  210. I never said Marc Lepine is like anyone in personality or behaviour. I said his beliefs were analogous. He believed a specific demographic was over-represented in engineering and took spots of people of his "demographic." Show me how his beliefs are different – you seem to be pointing more at his background, personality or behavior.

  211. I think you're right about the not failing thing. The only trouble is that there are more and more kids with learning problems than ever. I will tell you that a high school diploma in Alberta is relatively tougher to get (and get with higher marks) because kids there have to write 50% finals in grade 12. Some provinces write no exams, and most have finals worth only around 25%. that's a big difference. Alberta students are held to a high standard and they should be very proud of their accomplishment.

  212. I think you're right about the not failing thing. The only trouble is that there are more and more kids with learning problems than ever. I will tell you that a high school diploma in Alberta is relatively tougher to get (and get with higher marks) because kids there have to write 50% finals in grade 12. Some provinces write no exams, and most have finals worth only around 25%. that's a big difference. Alberta students are held to a high standard and they should be very proud of their accomplishment.

  213. This is hardly a discussion if it starts with "Too Asian?"

  214. You really must not know anything about current acceptance standards at universities. The marks need to be very high (mid eighties, in some cases for arts faculties and in Alberta where students have to write 50% finals this is not easy, so it's certainly not just about having enough money!

  215. You really must not know anything about current acceptance standards at universities. The marks need to be very high (mid eighties, in some cases for arts faculties and in Alberta where students have to write 50% finals this is not easy, so it's certainly not just about having enough money!

    • Well, I teach undergraduates in Western Canada, so I'd say I have a pretty good idea. If you feel an 80% high school average is representative of high academic achievement, I'd say you're sorely mistaken. I know that certain limited enrollment undergraduate programs are more competitive, but in general a 60% average in an academic high school stream gets you in to just about every school in this country. High school grade inflation helps the average entrance grade in non-limited enrollment programs look more impressive.

      • You certainly don't teach inAlberta because stats from around 2007 put grads graduating from Alberta with an 80% or higher at around 20% ( say compared to Ontario grads where 50% of grade 12's would have an average of 80% or higher). Google up grade inflation and you can see some info there. I 'm sorry but I am more than confident that my kid's approximate 87% average is a lot higher achievement than a a kid with same or even higher marks from say BC, where there are no more finals. And you are completely mistaken about getting into univ with a 60% average! You wouldn't get into U Calgary, U Alberta, UBC etc. (even for bah of Arts) with a 60%! Maybe somewhere like Vancouver Island College or some of the smaller,lesser known schools. You are sorely mistaken.

        • I'll admit to a slight mistake there, after some quick Googling. My 60% idea was based on the assumption that a 60% pass system is in place, which apparently isn't the case in Alberta. According to the U of A's website, a 70% average (on a 50% pass scale) is considered competitive for most programs…Kin and Engineering are closer to 80%. Of course, variation means that will at times be higher and at times lower, because seats need to be filled regardless. When I was an undergraduate (not so many years ago), I was granted early admission to a limited enrollment program, along with about 80 other students. The problem was that there were 120 seats, so our group entrance average went from being above 85 to around 80. You can do the math as to what that means. The actual information I would be interested in seeing is how many eligible students who want to attend university are entirely rejected, both from their first choice school and from any other schools to which they have applied. I'm guessing the first case is extremely low, and the second is only slightly different from zero.

          But, regardless of that, my argument is that anyone with the aspiration to go to university, a brain, and a pulse can achieve those minimum requirements. My experience with primarily first year university students, including some from your precious academic hotbed of Alberta, is that they are generally woefully underprepared for post-secondary education. Some thrive, most do not. This tells me that one's high school average means just slightly more than nothing. And no, I have no racial/cultural generalizations to make in that regard.

          • I know that last year the cutoff mark for entrance to bach of arts at UBC was 84%. It might have been around 78% at U of C. You'd need more than a pulse to get that here. I believe you about the grade inflation and the fact that a lot of students arrive woefully unprepared due to over- easy marking. I am not always loving living in this "precious academic hotbed of Alberta" as you called it but you can't have it both ways- being pissed about the woefully unprepared thing and yet not allowing for the fact that some kids do face higher standards which probably does bode well for university. In fact, someone, I think from Lethbridge wrote a paper on marks for students from Alberta and how it plays out at certain universities later. They found that given similar marks, the Alberta student performed better than some other province's students. Interestingly, the difference became more marked as the average went down into the 70's. Similarily, some schools (like Waterloo and McGill developed a "data bank" to address all the grade inflation in Ontario. They developed a "factor" system whereby a student for school x was given + or – 10 marks depending on the school they were from and what their data said bore out in first year. Hey, I wouldn't be living in the " precious hotbed" except that we had to move here for work reasons. The whole healthcare thing is getting annoying and I hate that we've let the private health care happen here. We lost our doc of 20 years to that but that's another topic.

          • Your questions- how many students are entirely rejected from their first choice or from any school they have applied to is interesting- I know that here in the precious hotbed a lot of kids upgrade before even trying to apply to their school of choice as the marks are not high enough. There has to be some kind of cottage industry here in upgrading courses ( especially kids who need "pure math to apply to their program). As to getting in to any university period, I don't even know if that's that way student's see it or even should see it. Maybe they can't afford to travel to go to a univ that's easier to get into, may they're better off just going into the workforce if they're not academic enough.

      • You know I didn't choose some hoity toity private school for my kid to attend. It is our neighborhood school here in Alberta and it just happens to be the seventh ranked school in the province ( by measure of the Fraser rankings which, whether you agree with it or not, looks at things like the difference between the school mark VS exam mark. At our school the diff is only somewhere around 0.4%! In other words the kids don't get an artificially high mark to compensate for their exams. That would be nice but it isn't the case. If you google up English 30, 2010 and Social 30 results, 2010, you will see articles on this subject and just how tough those exams were with quite low marks ( they aim for around a 63% average) and I know for a fact that many kids lost scholarships due to that. I' m not saying high standards aren't good, but my God, don't be so arrogantly dismissive about an 80% average being not representative of high academic achievement. At some schools, like our neighborhood school that is a very good average and one that is well-earned. I bet you also didn't know that Alberta has had, for about the last ten years, an extremely tough math curriculum unique to that province- "Pure Math – lucky us. It has proved to be so difficult that they are changing it. So don't talk to me about grade inflation, it's real but it isn't happening as much in Alberta as the other provinces (interestingly some schools have a higher diff between the school mark and exam mark – especially the "gifted school" but at least the 50% finals balance things to make it a fairly objective result).

        • I love Alberta :) I went to High School at S.W.C. and did full I.B… diploma program… I now go to school at U of T, and I must say the public education system in Alberta is hands down the best in the country… so what if kids have to work a little harder.. ultimately it's good for them and gives them an edge. After all, it's still relatively easy when you compare it European or Asian schools… in this Global world we need to push Canadian children more then ever… enough with the political correctness!

    • And are acceptance standards not supposed to be high? Again, if you want to go to university, you need to work for it.

  216. Russell Williams, Paul Bernardo, and Robert Pickton are white. Therefore, white people are psychopathic murderers. Therefore, white people have a tendency to kill and rape. Therefore, white people should't be allowed to have any positions of power.

  217. Yes, I believe in high standards and doing well but competing so hard as to cause too much stress is not something I'm comfortable with as a parent.

  218. Foreign students are a sought-after source of income for universities that take in more students every year (this can mean accepting students with lower grades), this is simply a reality. Most of them do not seek landed immigrant status, but rather return to their lives in their home countries. (of course, the claim that landed immigrants are "a drain on the system" is so plainly ridiculous that it does not warrant much reply)

  219. Race based university entrance is just like the quotas the federal government uses in hiring and promotion. All very PC but about as stupid an idea as even a vote seeking politician can come up with. University entrance , like jobs MUST be solely merit based.

  220. Race based university entrance is just like the quotas the federal government uses in hiring and promotion. All very PC but about as stupid an idea as even a vote seeking politician can come up with. University entrance , like jobs MUST be solely merit based.

  221. Well, I teach undergraduates in Western Canada, so I'd say I have a pretty good idea. If you feel an 80% high school average is representative of high academic achievement, I'd say you're sorely mistaken. I know that certain limited enrollment undergraduate programs are more competitive, but in general a 60% average in an academic high school stream gets you in to just about every school in this country. High school grade inflation helps the average entrance grade in non-limited enrollment programs look more impressive.

  222. You certainly don't teach inAlberta because stats from around 2007 put grads graduating from Alberta with an 80% or higher at around 20% ( say compared to Ontario grads where 50% of grade 12's would have an average of 80% or higher). Google up grade inflation and you can see some info there. I 'm sorry but I am more than confident that my kid's approximate 87% average is a lot higher achievement than a a kid with same or even higher marks from say BC, where there are no more finals. And you are completely mistaken about getting into univ with a 60% average! You wouldn't get into U Calgary, U Alberta, UBC etc. (even for bah of Arts) with a 60%! Maybe somewhere like Vancouver Island College or some of the smaller,lesser known schools. You are sorely mistaken.

  223. Again, you're responding to an argument I'm not making. In the classroom, yes, we need to set a standard and a curriculum that corresponds to what students in that field need to learn, and maintain the level of academic rigour regardless of the ethnic/cultural makeup of the student body. However, in terms of student services, there is a need to meet the unique needs of the existing student body. If the demographics are changing, then changes to existing services might be needed. My perspective is somewhat limited, as the department I teach in is quite diverse, but my experience has been that Chinese international students in particular are not well-served by existing student services, and that they do experience cultural tensions that other international students may not. The responsibilities of a university don't end at the classroom.

    I have also never suggested that anyone is "tak(ing) spots" from anyone, though others have. I am merely suggesting that there are social implications to demographic change in universities, and that we need to acknowledge these rather than sticking our heads in the sand.

  224. You know I didn't choose some hoity toity private school for my kid to attend. It is our neighborhood school here in Alberta and it just happens to be the seventh ranked school in the province ( by measure of the Fraser rankings which, whether you agree with it or not, looks at things like the difference between the school mark VS exam mark. At our school the diff is only somewhere around 0.4%! In other words the kids don't get an artificially high mark to compensate for their exams. That would be nice but it isn't the case. If you google up English 30, 2010 and Social 30 results, 2010, you will see articles on this subject and just how tough those exams were with quite low marks ( they aim for around a 63% average) and I know for a fact that many kids lost scholarships due to that. I' m not saying high standards aren't good, but my God, don't be so arrogantly dismissive about an 80% average being not representative of high academic achievement. At some schools, like our neighborhood school that is a very good average and one that is well-earned. I bet you also didn't know that Alberta has had, for about the last ten years, an extremely tough math curriculum unique to that province- "Pure Math – lucky us. It has proved to be so difficult that they are changing it. So don't talk to me about grade inflation, it's real but it isn't happening as much in Alberta as the other provinces (interestingly some schools have a higher diff between the school mark and exam mark – especially the "gifted school" but at least the 50% finals balance things to make it a fairly objective result).

  225. I'll admit to a slight mistake there, after some quick Googling. My 60% idea was based on the assumption that a 60% pass system is in place, which apparently isn't the case in Alberta. According to the U of A's website, a 70% average (on a 50% pass scale) is considered competitive for most programs…Kin and Engineering are closer to 80%. Of course, variation means that will at times be higher and at times lower, because seats need to be filled regardless. When I was an undergraduate (not so many years ago), I was granted early admission to a limited enrollment program, along with about 80 other students. The problem was that there were 120 seats, so our group entrance average went from being above 85 to around 80. You can do the math as to what that means. The actual information I would be interested in seeing is how many eligible students who want to attend university are entirely rejected, both from their first choice school and from any other schools to which they have applied. I'm guessing the first case is extremely low, and the second is only slightly different from zero.

    But, regardless of that, my argument is that anyone with the aspiration to go to university, a brain, and a pulse can achieve those minimum requirements. My experience with primarily first year university students, including some from your precious academic hotbed of Alberta, is that they are generally woefully underprepared for post-secondary education. Some thrive, most do not. This tells me that one's high school average means just slightly more than nothing. And no, I have no racial/cultural generalizations to make in that regard.

  226. I know that last year the cutoff mark for entrance to bach of arts at UBC was 84%. It might have been around 78% at U of C. You'd need more than a pulse to get that here. I believe you about the grade inflation and the fact that a lot of students arrive woefully unprepared due to over- easy marking. I am not always loving living in this "precious academic hotbed of Alberta" as you called it but you can't have it both ways- being pissed about the woefully unprepared thing and yet not allowing for the fact that some kids do face higher standards which probably does bode well for university. In fact, someone, I think from Lethbridge wrote a paper on marks for students from Alberta and how it plays out at certain universities later. They found that given similar marks, the Alberta student performed better than some other province's students. Interestingly, the difference became more marked as the average went down into the 70's. Similarily, some schools (like Waterloo and McGill developed a "data bank" to address all the grade inflation in Ontario. They developed a "factor" system whereby a student for school x was given + or – 10 marks depending on the school they were from and what their data said bore out in first year. Hey, I wouldn't be living in the " precious hotbed" except that we had to move here for work reasons. The whole healthcare thing is getting annoying and I hate that we've let the private health care happen here. We lost our doc of 20 years to that but that's another topic.

  227. that's kind of the problem. asians aren't becoming "notable alumni" after being churned out of the program

  228. they aren't complaining about ONE student from china, they're complaining about the classroom filled with students from China

  229. We're talking about Chinese Canadians, not students from china, in general

  230. what i find interesting about all this is all these asian people now saying "it should all be about merit'.Funny where were you people when all those "diversity iniative" programs were under way which we all know was code speak for speak for to many white people.I didn't see you then.Should it be about merit of course it should but it hasn't been that way for 40 years.So all you asians who are pissed of because the multiculti monster has turned on you.Well i'll tell you what i've been told for 20 years now shut up,sit down and "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY!" oh and if you don't your a racist.

    • I was earning my degree on merit – where were you? To my knowledge, Asians have never benefited from "diversity initiative" programs in Canada. Can you point out where? Chinese (born in Canada), however, have been banned from Canadian universities due to Chinese exclusions laws that lasted until 1947.

    • To my knowledge, "asian people" have not benefited from any "diversity initiative" programs related to admissions. Can you even point out any?

      Asians were in fact banned from Canadian universities because of Asian exclusion laws that lasted until 1947 and impacted decades to come.

      The only university diversity programs for admissions that i know of were designed to benefit women in science, First Nations schooling and other demographic groups.

      I was in school competing on merit. So before you label Asians without facts, where is your proof?

      Can you point out facts to back anything you said?

      • Sorry for repeat (tech issue) this comment has more details.

  231. what i find interesting about all this is all these asian people now saying "it should all be about merit'.Funny where were you people when all those "diversity iniative" programs were under way which we all know was code speak for speak for to many white people.I didn't see you then.Should it be about merit of course it should but it hasn't been that way for 40 years.So all you asians who are pissed of because the multiculti monster has turned on you.Well i'll tell you what i've been told for 20 years now shut up,sit down and "CELEBRATE DIVERSITY!" oh and if you don't your a racist.

  232. Your questions- how many students are entirely rejected from their first choice or from any school they have applied to is interesting- I know that here in the precious hotbed a lot of kids upgrade before even trying to apply to their school of choice as the marks are not high enough. There has to be some kind of cottage industry here in upgrading courses ( especially kids who need "pure math to apply to their program). As to getting in to any university period, I don't even know if that's that way student's see it or even should see it. Maybe they can't afford to travel to go to a univ that's easier to get into, may they're better off just going into the workforce if they're not academic enough.

  233. And, with us paying for it.

  234. If you looked at my other post – Canadian statistics show that foreign students only make up 11.7% of 1.67 million Canadian students in 2009-10. Students from China specifically only make up 2.99%. That's ONE student in a class of 34.

    That you consider more than that to be non-Canadian is why Chinese-Canadians have a beef with reader comments and this story. You think we are foreigners and not Canadian.

  235. Try getting into a teacher's college at an Ontario university. If you're white, (and especially male) you won't get in. Even the self-proclaimed "leftist/marxist social engineers" will tell you that if most students are non-white, they will better "identify" with a non white teacher. And yet in the same breath they fervently promote racial equality likes it's a religion – even though most accomplished anthropologists will tell you that racial equality is a myth. Where is the charge of anti-white racism in universities? I gave up on a getting career in public education to start my own private school in which I, and I alone will set the 'rules', thereby catering to a specific 'niche'.

    • What kind of factual information do you base this on? My brother-in-law teaches and he is "white" and "male."

      I might tend to agree that there are a lot of "female" elementary school teachers, but at secondary and post-secondary levels, I tend to believe there are more males.

      Even by your belief, if you're rejected for being "male" then being "white" is a moot point.

      • "I might tend to agree"; LOL, so what does that mean? From my experience there are a lot more females across the grades.

        And why do you think there are more females than males in the educational system? Because males are less easily swayed by brainwashing. Do not suggest to me that there is no difference between males and females by regurgitating egalitarian-altruistic propaganda spewed by every brain-dead professor on university campuses; that information is false. It was an invention of the degenerate Frankfurt school, which, since after WW2, has an agenda to destroy Western culture; I repudiate all such non-sense, and there is a growing number of (white) people who are tuning into this phenomenon, as they see a society in which there is something very wrong.

        And another thing, you seem to be fishing 'facts' from every one on this thread. Before you play devils advocate and trying to sound scholarly, I suggest you do some research that goes beyond typing a search term in google. This is very one sided and gets you no where, because google is heavily filtered to parse out alternative perspectives and information; yes, google is very much inline with the brainwashing propaganda at universities.

        Further, it is very naive to make such a 'fantastic' claim that you are asian who has a white brother-in law male teacher, thereby attempting to de-mystify racism and misogyny in the same breath; after all, I don't know you so how could I counter argue? LMAO! Find another hobby, Mr. psuedo-intellectual.

        • tend does not mean fully agree if you look it up. It means there's bits of truth but it's not the whole truth.

        • I don't claim to be qualified – i'm just asking questions. I see a lot of facts disputing what is said.

          How do you know i am Asian? My kid is Scottish. Is Patrick Chung on the New England Patriots Asian? We have people of many races and gender in my family.

        • Ultimately, a person who is confident doesn't think it terms of how many people of a certain kind are on a hockey team, in a student body or on staff at your work place. The best know how to compete in any circumstance. I

          I played against NHL hockey players and people who question what kind of nationalities are on a hockey team are not good hockey players.

        • I probably have a more informed background than you think (far beyond Google)…. I attended 3 Canadian universities; my dad, my mom (and my step father) have worked at universities their entire lives (many across Canada); my brother has a PhD, both my sister and brother in law are teachers; my cousin is a prof at Cal State (specializing on this topic); a close friend hires faculty at McGill; my college landlord's husband was the first Asian dean in Canada; i was a journalist at a university (knew Deans, Board of Governors, President, Chancellor, student demographics); there are people of many races and gender in my family (less racial/gender bias). I actually know this topic very well (and the facts) without Google.

    • Yeah good for u the school that u oerate should focus on more social program and more fun not acedenically incline so the student mature at 16 be adult and ready for doing adult stuff when they entering party university and next year macklean will publish which ones is top from alexcandra and rachel and her friend have experiencing .

    • Then it definitely because you are not good enough to teach!
      I'm currently taking teacher's college in ontario, more than 90% of teacher candidates are white and half of them are male students in secondary program
      While there might be less male student in primary teaching program since normally female did better job when taking care of younger kids.

      Fair enough?

  236. Try getting into a teacher's college at an Ontario university. If you're white, (and especially male) you won't get in. Even the self-proclaimed "leftist/marxist social engineers" will tell you that if most students are non-white, they will better "identify" with a non white teacher. And yet in the same breath they fervently promote racial equality likes it's a religion – even though most accomplished anthropologists will tell you that racial equality is a myth. Where is the charge of anti-white racism in universities? I gave up on a getting career in public education to start my own private school in which I, and I alone will set the 'rules', thereby catering to a specific 'niche'.

  237. Which comment of yours is real – that you're complaining about students from china (as per your other post) or that you're complaining of students who are Canadian who look Chinese?

  238. What kind of factual information do you base this on? My brother-in-law teaches and he is "white" and "male."

    I might tend to agree that there are a lot of "female" elementary school teachers, but at secondary and post-secondary levels, I tend to believe there are more males.

    Even by your belief, if you're rejected for being "male" then being "white" is a moot point.

  239. Do the math – see my comment below. Only 1 in 34 university students is from China, that's ONE student in an average class size.

  240. Yeah good for u the school that u oerate should focus on more social program and more fun not acedenically incline so the student mature at 16 be adult and ready for doing adult stuff when they entering party university and next year macklean will publish which ones is top from alexcandra and rachel and her friend have experiencing .

  241. I was earning my degree on merit – where were you? To my knowledge, Asians have never benefited from "diversity initiative" programs in Canada. Can you point out where? Chinese (born in Canada), however, have been banned from Canadian universities due to Chinese exclusions laws that lasted until 1947.

  242. I am quoting you so how am i not responding to your comment? A good argument only includes what's relevant to the argument.

  243. My father is a professor and has regularly dealt with students from China (for decades in more than one country). Never once has one student said there's a problem with services. What's the problem no one seems to be saying?

  244. Hello, do you people not understand that when non-citizens attend Canadian university they pay the full cost and is not under direct subsidy of the government? And hello, unless you've been living under a rock, there is a "global" economy now and having non-Canadians prepares our youth for the reality of success by learning foreign cultures that they will eventually be working with to succeed.

  245. Maclean's conveniently omitted that Chinese (born in Canada) were actually once banned from Canadian universities via Chinese exclusion laws that lasted until 1947. Legalized exclusion impacted Canadian university demographics and social behaviour for decades to come. For an article about race-based admissions, that's quite an omission.

  246. Maclean's conveniently omitted that Chinese (born in Canada) were actually once banned from Canadian universities via Chinese exclusion laws that lasted until 1947. Legalized exclusion impacted Canadian university demographics and social behaviour for decades to come. For an article about race-based admissions, that's quite an omission.

  247. Many comments seem to think Canadians who look Chinese are foreigners. Maclean's stirred that perception with a flag of China and the title "Too Asian?"

    The reality, however is quite different. The stats I see from 2009-10 show that only 1 student in a university class of 34 is from China. Only 4 students (total) are foreign in a class of 34. That means everyone else is from Canada.

    So, how does one debate a Canadian who thinks Canadians who look Chinese are not Canadian? That's like trying to debate an American who thinks Obama is Muslim and not born in America. Many as they may be in numbers who believe this, it's hard to debate people who believe things that are not real.

    • In 1979, W-Five also portrayed Canadian students who look Chinese as foreigners in a broadcast called Campus Giveaway. W-Five later admitted, that portrayal was "racist." The broadcast, however, forever tarnished W-5's brand. The broadcast included misleading statistics (no different than what i am reading today).

  248. Many comments seem to think Canadians who look Chinese are foreigners. Maclean's stirred that perception with a flag of China and the title "Too Asian?"

    The reality, however is quite different. The stats I see from 2009-10 show that only 1 student in a university class of 34 is from China. Only 4 students (total) are foreign in a class of 34. That means everyone else is from Canada.

    So, how does one debate a Canadian who thinks Canadians who look Chinese are not Canadian? That's like trying to debate an American who thinks Obama is Muslim and not born in America. Many as they may be in numbers who believe this, it's hard to debate people who believe things that are not real.

  249. In 1979, W-Five also portrayed Canadian students who look Chinese as foreigners in a broadcast called Campus Giveaway. W-Five later admitted, that portrayal was "racist." The broadcast, however, forever tarnished W-5's brand. The broadcast included misleading statistics (no different than what i am reading today).

  250. Wow, good job North America, stay on the course for a downward spiral in education. What's next, unionized "students" that prep and coddle underachievers to get comfortable with the unionized way of life? Seniority is all that matters, and merit is out the door? As long as you can drink and party that's what University is for? Wow…I think I'll be looking for schools in Europe or Asia for my kids.

    • Europe is not much different, and in some cases even worse than north america, especially when it comes to leftist brainwashing. Bottom line: get as much information as you can; especially, know what the political climate is, and make sure they are strict with standards.

  251. Wow, good job North America, stay on the course for a downward spiral in education. What's next, unionized "students" that prep and coddle underachievers to get comfortable with the unionized way of life? Seniority is all that matters, and merit is out the door? As long as you can drink and party that's what University is for? Wow…I think I'll be looking for schools in Europe or Asia for my kids.

  252. To my knowledge, "asian people" have not benefited from any "diversity initiative" programs related to admissions. Can you even point out any?

    Asians were in fact banned from Canadian universities because of Asian exclusion laws that lasted until 1947 and impacted decades to come.

    The only university diversity programs for admissions that i know of were designed to benefit women in science, First Nations schooling and other demographic groups.

    I was in school competing on merit. So before you label Asians without facts, where is your proof?

    Can you point out facts to back anything you said?

  253. Sorry for repeat (tech issue) this comment has more details.

  254. "I might tend to agree"; LOL, so what does that mean? From my experience there are a lot more females across the grades.

    And why do you think there are more females than males in the educational system? Because males are less easily swayed by brainwashing. Do not suggest to me that there is no difference between males and females by regurgitating egalitarian-altruistic propaganda spewed by every brain-dead professor on university campuses; that information is false. It was an invention of the degenerate Frankfurt school, which, since after WW2, has an agenda to destroy Western culture; I repudiate all such non-sense, and there is a growing number of (white) people who are tuning into this phenomenon, as they see a society in which there is something very wrong.

    And another thing, you seem to be fishing 'facts' from every one on this thread. Before you play devils advocate and trying to sound scholarly, I suggest you do some research that goes beyond typing a search term in google. This is very one sided and gets you no where, because google is heavily filtered to parse out alternative perspectives and information; yes, google is very much inline with the brainwashing propaganda at universities.

    Further, it is very naive to make such a 'fantastic' claim that you are asian who has a white brother-in law male teacher, thereby attempting to de-mystify racism and misogyny in the same breath; after all, I don't know you so how could I counter argue? LMAO! Find another hobby, Mr. psuedo-intellectual.

  255. Europe is not much different, and in some cases even worse than north america, especially when it comes to leftist brainwashing. Bottom line: get as much information as you can; especially, know what the political climate is, and make sure they are strict with standards.