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Stephen Harper and the Canada Health Act


 

Greetings from the Northwest Territories, where the Conservative and Liberal campaigns have come to debate Stephen Harper’s feelings for the Canada Health Act.

Specifically, the Conservative side is demanding that the Liberal side pull an ad that suggests Mr. Harper once suggested aloud that the Canada Health Act be scrapped. The ad cites the Globe and Mail, but it now seems the comment in question should have been attributed to a different former president of the National Citizens Coalition. (The Globe has now added a correction to the article in question.)

The Conservatives further claim that Mr. Harper “has always supported the Canada Health Act.” There may be quibbles on that point to be found below in the backgrounder the Liberal campaign has distributed, which sets out their sourcing for the ad in question (including, er, Maclean’s) and other comments attributed to Mr. Harper.

Speaking with reporters here, Mr. Ignatieff said that if the Liberal ad is mistaken, necessary action will be taken. Indeed, the Liberals now say they will replace the “scrapped” quote from the current ad with one of the other comments cited here. Furthermore, they say they will post an online poll to ask Canadians which of Mr. Harper’s quotes should be used in the new cut.

Stephen Harper should come on the record and state what his views are about the Canada Health Act. Does he think it should be “scrapped”? “replaced”? “overhauled”?

In the English-language debate last week, he was openly musing about “alternative service delivery”.

The quote in question is widely reported by numerous national media outlets.

Prime Minister Stephen Harper has cautiously avoided revealing details of federal plans for a renewed accord. In his previous role as vice-president of the National Citizens Coalition, he was no fan of the blueprint for Canada’s public health care system, declaring in 1997: “It’s past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” (Maclean’s, January 31, 2011)

“Before he entered politics, when he was vice-president of the National Citizens’ Coalition, Mr. Harper said: “It’s past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” (Globe and Mail, August 26, 2010, Column written by André Picard public health reporter at The Globe and Mail)

In 1997, when Harper was vice-president of the National Citizens’ Coalition, a group obsessed with privatizing health care, he said: “Well I think it would be a good idea . . . Moving toward alternatives, including those provided by the private sector, is a natural development of our health care system.” In another interview that year, Harper said, ” It’s past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” (Calgary Herald, May 5, 2005)

Here are some other quotes to the same effect:

Harper wanted to “replace” the Canada Health and Social Transfer in his famous 2001 Firewall letter:

“Resume provincial responsibility for health care policy. If Ottawa objects to provincial policy, fight in the courts. If we lose, we can afford the financial penalties Ottawa might try to impose under the Canada Health Act. Albertans deserve better than the long waiting periods and technological backwardness that are rapidly coming to characterize Canadian medicine. Alberta should also argue that each province should raise its own revenue for health care — i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points, as Quebec has argued for many years.”

(Stephen Harper, ‘Firewall’ letter, January 24, 2001)

In his 2002 Canadian Alliance Leadership campaign website, Harper wanted to “overhaul” the Act:

“Harper also believes that our health care will continue to deteriorate unless Ottawa overhauls the Canada Health Act to allow the provinces to experiment with market reforms and private health care delivery options. He is prepared to take tough positions including experimenting with private delivery in the public system.”

Others // autres:

“governments across this country have experimented with alternative service delivery….We’re not going to wave the finger at provinces because they experiment with different delivery.”

(English Language Leader’s Debate, April 12, 2011)

“We also support the exploration of alternative ways to deliver health care. Moving toward alternatives, including those provided by the private sector, is a natural development of our health care system.”

(Stephen Harper, Toronto Star, October 2002)

“Monopolies in the public sector are just as objectionable as monopolies in the private sector. It should not matter who delivers health care, whether it is private, for profit, not for profit or public institutions, as long as Canadians have access to it regardless of their financial means.”

(Stephen Harper, Hansard, Oct 1, 2002)

“each province should raise its own revenue for health care – i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points.”

(Stephen Harper, ‘Firewall’ letter, January 24, 2001)

“What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care].”

(Stephen Harper, then President of the NCC, 2001)


 

Stephen Harper and the Canada Health Act

  1. It is quite rich indeed for Harper to pretend to be upset over shadings and downright mistruths!

  2. It is quite rich indeed for Harper to pretend to be upset over shadings and downright mistruths!

    • The result of Harper giving the tax cuts to the corporations will be him telling the provinces in 2014 `Sorry we are out of money because we spent it on Jets and cannot give you any for health care so make some serious cuts and introduce private alternatives if you want your people to have access to health care. Just to remind you this is a provincial matter so we are not responsible for it`

      Trickle Down Economics Do Not Work.

      Corporations are meant to maximize profits for the shareholders not create jobs. In the corporate world by law all decisions must be made in the best interest of the shareholders not the Canadian Public. Tax cuts are just used to pad the profit margins until cheaper labor can be attained outside of Canada.

      Corporate Tax Cuts = Corporate Bailouts

      Small Corporate Businesses
      $500,000 (Average Income) x 1.5% (Corporate Tax Cut) = $7500/year Savings

      Large Corporations
      $100,000,000 (Average Income) x 1.5% (Corporate Tax Cut) = $1,500,000/year Savings

      Can a small business create jobs with that?

  3. A junior Liberal staffer must resign!

  4. A junior Liberal staffer must resign!

    • To be fair, this seems like a cock-up on the part of the journalist.

    • Sorry the Liberal party doesn't throw people under the bus.

  5. The LIberals are in the gutter. They should be ashamed. Health care is an important issue and this ad demonstrates that the Liberals have no interest in a real debate over health care policy. I despair for my country.

    • Yes, because we all know the gutter rightfully belongs to the CPC. How dare they!
      ;-)

    • We are doomed if the desperate Liberals get anywhere near power.

      • You have absolutely no faith that Canada, its institutions, its people, its way of life will not survive 4 to 5 years with the Liberals holding a majority? You have that little faith in Canada?

        Shocking.

        • Hey, I have spent most of my life living with a Liberal gov`t in power and I am aware that for the most part they were a competent gov`t, however they have done some things over the past 10 years that tell me they would be a poor substitute for power right now.

          Because of their scattered allegiances, lack of direction, and poor leadership, I fear our way of life would suffer under a weakened Liberal gov`t.

          Check back with me in 4 years.

  6. Ooh -10….you'll have to count on hot air to stay warm!

  7. Ooh -10….you'll have to count on hot air to stay warm!

  8. Ther is nothing inconsistent with supporting both universal health coverage and alternative service delivery. Indeed many provinces including BC and Quebec support this under the Canada Health Act. The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves.

  9. "each province should raise its own revenue for health care – i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points"

    Couldn't be clearer than the firewall letter – unless he now denies authoring this as well.

  10. Ther is nothing inconsistent with supporting both universal health coverage and alternative service delivery. Indeed many provinces including BC and Quebec support this under the Canada Health Act. The Liberals should be ashamed of themselves.

    • Being paid by the post?

    • Yet in 5 years in power, Harper has held ZERO first ministers meetings and done nothing to address the substance or structure of the Canada Health Act. His avowed position is to terminate it, and let the Provinces and private sector go it alone. He needs a majority to ram through such a program and he hasn't got one — nor does he have the support of the Provinces.

      He deserves to be called out for being a Provincialist and for being too chicken to say as PM what he's said as an MP, head of the NCC and as leader of the Opposition.

      • But that's not his position. He thinks Provinces should raise their own revenue for health care, to be delivered under the principles of the Canada Health Act, particularly universal access. That should include alternative service delivery.

        • which provinces will receive the smaller tax cuts to make sure they can all raise enough?

          What happens when six provinces can't build hospitals?

          • Is he scrapping equalization? All provinces see their provincial taxes go up under Harper's proposal, offset by a cut in federal taxes. That's what tax room means.

          • Which provinces get the bigger cuts so they can take on the increased capital costs of hospitals?

        • You're describing his position when he was advocating for Alberta. He has put forward a variety of positions before and since as an MP (Reform and Alliance), head of the NCC, a party leader and then as Leader of the Opposition.

          What he HASN'T clarified is what his position is as PM. Now that he's been running the government for 5 years, he really should be in a potion to propose something substantive on the file (he sure had lots of opinions before). Instead, he won't even mention it — and has refused to sit down with the Premiers and discuss what he'd like to see take shape post 2014. Possibly because the only other politician who shares his vision is the leader of the Separatists.

          Regardless of what position he takes on health care, cutting out the Federal role in funding healthcare would require scrapping the Canada Health Act and replacing it with something else. Harper's just too much of a weasel to admit it until he has the wall of a majority to hide behind. Same goes for the long-gun registry, Senate reform and every other issue that requires he build some kind of support for policy among the Provinces. He won't work with or negotiate with anyone — he wants to receive popular acclimation and make changes from his lonely, darkly-lit office — all by himself.

          • He's committed to 6% growth in the transfer. And not having the First Minister's meetings does not seem to have drastically undermined our health system. If anything, fed-prov relations and the health system both seem to have improved.

          • "He's committed to 6% growth in the transfer. "

            Weeks into the election. Why nothing while IN GOVERNMENT for 5 years?

          • This just in – he says he plans to meet with the provinces – see if they can get some of those costs down. Nobody knows how to reduce spending like our Steve.

          • Because the current arrangement lasts until 2014. What crisis called for it to be re-examined in the last five years?

          • The accord that Martin brought in and which guaranteed the funding until 2014 called for the provinces and the feds to continue to work together to work on escalating pharmacare costs and increasing homecare availability. Apart from continuing the funding Harper has done nothing.
            We are facing a huge crisis in healthcare which requires leadership, not putting it on the backburner. He has shown no leadership on this.

          • Harper is incapable of working with other people.

          • Why is it the federal government's role to provide leadership on this? Are the provinces running into a problem that requires federal intervention? If so, what is it and why haven't they pressed for that intervention?

          • We are only voting him as PM, not King or God or Dictator. Even with majority he can propose change to policy but his detractors will still have a voice and as PM the finger points directly at HIM.
            No matter what decission for change there will always be differences of opinion.
            Why change? What do you think we are voting for. What I want is a reversal of crime. I want the death penalty brought back and used until there are no more repeat criminals. If charged with a crime you don't vote. Without paying taxs or tax fraud you are a criminal. Caught with guns on the street pistol or other your a criminal. Illigal drugs (using or selling), criminal.
            There are other problems but you get where I'm coming from.
            Everybodys got an excuse for drinking and driving , texting while driving. Criminal.
            You say it's a police state. I have no problem with that, it isn't me they are bothering, just you.
            The chances of me getting my wish are nil as too many criminals are out looking for another victim to plunder and they have access to computers to whine about nanny state and their rights.

          • "We are only voting him as PM, not King or God or Dictator. "

            Technically, he's running as an MP in Calgary SW.
            Just sayin'.

            "You say it's a police state. I have no problem with that, it isn't me they are bothering, just you."

            You didn't have your hard working, tax-paying neighbours roughed up by out of town cops in their own neighbourhood during the G20, did you? You didn't see your neighbours bashed with clubs and shields and detained without charge for having the audacity to go to lunch kilometres from "the fence" and the "designated protest area" — AFTER the G20 meeting had ended, did you? I also bet you didn't listen to cops from all over the country laughing in the days before the G20 about the free-for-all pass they were being given. Then they packed up, left for their home cities and provinces, and never had to show a lick of evidence to support their actions.

  11. "each province should raise its own revenue for health care – i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points"

    Couldn't be clearer than the firewall letter – unless he now denies authoring this as well.

    • No, just that he is in a different position now, and so naturally has a different perspective.

      Kind of like Ignatieff considering himself an American when he's in American and a Canadian when he's in Canada. Unless he denies telling American's that America is their country, just as much as it is his.

      Yep, I suppose we can continue being children and keep pointing out ridiculous things about each other, or we can try to grow up and have an adult conversation. Seems to me that Harper is the most willing one to engage in that conversation, but instead of finding conversation partners, he mostly finds the attack dogs.

      • We can't have an 'adult conversation' as long as you make statements like that about Harper.

        • Exactly.

          • Then I guess you're SOL.

        • We can't have ab adult conversation, period – adult or otherwise – when candidates seeking election refuse to participate in public debates!

          • Very true…and one of the biggest complaints in this campaign is that Harper won't talk to anyone ….not the public, and not the media….so there won't be any conversation.

      • There's no room in a campaign for an adult discussion. The real test will be whether or not we can have an adult discussion when the house resumes sitting.

        At this point, I'm not particularly optimistic.

        • These days, I'm not sure if we can have an adult discussion about adult discussions, let alone adult discussions about health care.

          • Did you catch the Ottawa Citizen/Postmedia article on the MP's exit interviews?

            That was definitely some food for thought. The useful things MP's accomplish on the hill are not public, and the public things they do are not useful. You'd think all MP's would want to have an adult discussion about how to address that.

      • Uh, have you seen the CPC ads of the past decade?

        Iggy is supposed to have said that the Libs will correct the ad as soon as the CPC takes a similar approach to their misquotes and dishonesty. Let's see if the CPC step up to the challenge.

      • Harper is the first to blame. Harper has been unwilling to engage in any conversation. During this campaign he has restricted reporters from doing their work by limiting their questions to five. It's been like this since he became PM !

    • The Harper quote used in the Lib ad was not out of context: the Libs used a quote which could not be attributed to Harper.

      You not understanding the difference tells me more about yourself than it does about Harper or the Conservative mindset.

      Ah, and we all know Jane Taber's mindset – pretty shallow at best.

      • I'm not defending the Liberal quote, and indeed I was one of the first in here to state that the offending quote should be removed. It was quite obvious that it was not appropriate.

        But if you can't see what a misattributed quote has in common with a completely fabricated quote, such as the one I linked to, then there's really no hope.

  12. Aren't we lucky, Wherry, that Ignatieff's been out of the country for soooo long. That way he can't be quoted on anything Canadian.

    Harper ba,ba,ba,ba,ba,ba,b,ab,b,a,ba,bad! Good article, Wherry!

  13. Aren't we lucky, Wherry, that Ignatieff's been out of the country for soooo long. That way he can't be quoted on anything Canadian.

    Harper ba,ba,ba,ba,ba,ba,b,ab,b,a,ba,bad! Good article, Wherry!

  14. “What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care].”

    Truth hurts but the sacred cow must be sheltered. MP Keith Martin has been pounding the table on this for years.

    As far as the ads go, everyone is busy taking things out of context.

  15. No, just that he is in a different position now, and so naturally has a different perspective.

    Kind of like Ignatieff considering himself an American when he's in American and a Canadian when he's in Canada. Unless he denies telling American's that America is their country, just as much as it is his.

    Yep, I suppose we can continue being children and keep pointing out ridiculous things about each other, or we can try to grow up and have an adult conversation. Seems to me that Harper is the most willing one to engage in that conversation, but instead of finding conversation partners, he mostly finds the attack dogs.

  16. “What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care].”

    Truth hurts but the sacred cow must be sheltered. MP Keith Martin has been pounding the table on this for years.

    As far as the ads go, everyone is busy taking things out of context.

    • Except that Harper won't be up front about it and hasn't been since becoming PM. He's waiting for a majority before he'll reveal what his plans are — hence the total lack of action on the file for 5 years.

      • Can't really do much without a majority. NDP would fight tooth and nail against any changes. This could have been a Tory/Lib cooperative issue, but instead it is just another political sound byte.

        • So your retort is that 5 years of inaction by the Harper government is really the liberal's fault?

          That's a new one.

  17. Darn right, Quebecers should have their own special rules. If Albertans would be allowed for implementing the same rules, Quebecers wouldn't feel special anymore.

    How dare Harper have asked for Alberta to be treated the same way as Quebec. Such non sense. Only Quebec is special. Great digging, Wherry! Great insights!

  18. Darn right, Quebecers should have their own special rules. If Albertans would be allowed for implementing the same rules, Quebecers wouldn't feel special anymore.

    How dare Harper have asked for Alberta to be treated the same way as Quebec. Such non sense. Only Quebec is special. Great digging, Wherry! Great insights!

    • Didn't you announce earlier today that this place is not worthy of your time?

      Did something happen to lower the value of your time?

      • So you couldn't spot the difference? That's good. Social bot-working does work wonders then.

        You see, I, too, have turned on the social-bot machine. No more thinking necessary. Just you guys thinking that a real person does the replying.

        Ain't it fun, communicating to social-bots?

        • No more thinking necessary. Just you guys thinking that a real person does the replying.

          I'm glad you've found your niche. Congratulations on your … success(?)

  19. We can't have an 'adult conversation' as long as you make statements like that about Harper.

  20. Hey Libs. Demand they pull the IPod ad, and a few others. Then run a nice scroll of Harper quotes on a variety of issues, maybe 15 or one after another. Fight back Libs.

  21. Hey Libs. Demand they pull the IPod ad, and a few others. Then run a nice scroll of Harper quotes on a variety of issues, maybe 15 or one after another. Fight back Libs.

  22. There's no room in a campaign for an adult discussion. The real test will be whether or not we can have an adult discussion when the house resumes sitting.

    At this point, I'm not particularly optimistic.

  23. Yes, because we all know the gutter rightfully belongs to the CPC. How dare they!
    ;-)

  24. Exactly.

  25. Being paid by the post?

  26. So, Aaron, it is clear that the Liberals LIED in this add, and it's just as clear that they knew they were LYING when they created it. This isn't just a spin on words here, this is bald-faced fabrication.

    yep….gotta love those Liberal values.

  27. So, Aaron, it is clear that the Liberals LIED in this add, and it's just as clear that they knew they were LYING when they created it. This isn't just a spin on words here, this is bald-faced fabrication.

    yep….gotta love those Liberal values.

    • Really?

      They took a quote from the Globe and Mail. The Globe and Mail now admits that THEY (the G&M) misattributed the quote. I don't disagree that the Liberals should have been more careful in their vetting of the ad, but if the nation's largest paper quotes Harper saying X I don't think it's outrageous of a political party to run an ad (in which they cite the G&M as the source) saying that "Harper said X".

      At the very least it's not "lying" unless they KNEW that the Globe story was wrong when they quoted it, and I certainly see no evidence that the Liberals knew ahead of time that the Globe story they were quoting was incorrect.

      • But Ms.Oda was lying? CIDA didn't think Oda had been lying? Why the double standard, Lord?

        Why always the double standard??

    • As an NDP voter hoping hopelessly for a Liberal win, I am 100% willing to let "number and depth of lies told" be the deciding factor in this election.

  28. As Kady O'Malley points out:

    "Alright, so now it's time for #LPC to ACKNOWLEDGE that it relied on false information and remove the quote, or pull the ad.

  29. Then I guess you're SOL.

  30. Uh, have you seen the CPC ads of the past decade?

    Iggy is supposed to have said that the Libs will correct the ad as soon as the CPC takes a similar approach to their misquotes and dishonesty. Let's see if the CPC step up to the challenge.

  31. As Kady O'Malley points out:

    "Alright, so now it's time for #LPC to ACKNOWLEDGE that it relied on false information and remove the quote, or pull the ad.

    • I think that's perfectly reasonable. It would at least provide some sort of standard when it comes to dealing with all attack ads in the future.

      • Just as soon as the Cons do the same.

        • Why wait? They got double the media exposure they probably would have if this quote was not included, and now they can only lose if they keep running it in rotation.

          And then the high-road becomes theirs again.

          • I agree….huge publicity drawing public attention to Harp's musings on healthcare…all of them…and the whole episode demonstrates his hypocrisy on attack ads.

        • Sorry, Emily, but Ignatieff really did live outside of Canada for 35 years!!! It's a fact.

        • Wrong answer.

          • They can …and just did apparently…substitute Harper's other remarks. They're all pretty much the same.

          • Yeah, I am pleased about that.I wasn't pleased when Ignatieff's initial response was "they have to be honest first." It was the wrong answer and I'm glad to see it was corrected so quickly. Ignatieff is improving in leaps & bounds as far as campaign politics is concerned. It's very encouraging that he has been able to learn from his mistakes. Maybe too little, too late, but still worthy of respect.

          • Yeah, he is. It's a special skill-set you can only learn by doing…we'll have to see if it works, I guess.

    • Easy peasy, if that Globe and Mail quote is inaccurate, it can be easily substituted – there are plenty to choose from.
      Seems very hypocritical of Harper though, don't you think? And why would he want to draw even more attention to his attitude towards healthcare funding.

      • "there are plenty to choose from. "

        No there aren't. None of the quotes they found comes even close.

        • Doesn't matter, in politics. "Harper wants to kill off doctors and nurses" will now stick, no matter what ad gets run in the next weeks.

  32. Yet in 5 years in power, Harper has held ZERO first ministers meetings and done nothing to address the substance or structure of the Canada Health Act. His avowed position is to terminate it, and let the Provinces and private sector go it alone. He needs a majority to ram through such a program and he hasn't got one — nor does he have the support of the Provinces.

    He deserves to be called out for being a Provincialist and for being too chicken to say as PM what he's said as an MP, head of the NCC and as leader of the Opposition.

  33. Isn't that how partisans always rationalize lying? Ignatieff should apologize and pull the ad unconditionally.

  34. I think that's perfectly reasonable. It would at least provide some sort of standard when it comes to dealing with all attack ads in the future.

  35. As someone who hates attack ads, I love it when attack ads backfire and bite the attacker in the a**. Love it.

  36. Not pull the ad, just the quote. They could probably replace it with something else Harper said.

    Really, it would only take a few seconds.

  37. As CR makes the most partisan comment here!

  38. Except that Harper won't be up front about it and hasn't been since becoming PM. He's waiting for a majority before he'll reveal what his plans are — hence the total lack of action on the file for 5 years.

  39. As someone who hates attack ads, I love it when attack ads backfire and bite the attacker in the a**. Love it.

    • If only it was true. The CPC was taken to task for a few incorrect attack ads, and it had no public opinion repercussions for them. It's usually just a way to get more free advertising from media.

      • Geez, can't a guy have his moment?

        • I gave you 5 minutes.

          That's an eternity in politics. :D

      • silly noob, acountability is for Liberals!

    • The message that Harper has it in for the surgeon who should be taking out your rotten appendix will stick. It is smarmy and dishonest, but it is still a win for the Liberals.

      PS: I gave you 4 hours, just to show you how reasonable I can be…

      • My appendix is rotten? Sh*t!

  40. Not pull the ad, just the quote. They could probably replace it with something else Harper said.

    Really, it would only take a few seconds.

    • I'd be happy if they pulled the quote. Even though whole ad is based on desperate fearmongering, the quote itself is the most egregious part of it because it's been proven to be false.

      • I will admit to shaking my head when I saw the ad, as it reminded me of the desperation in the 2006 Martin campaign.

        That said, I'm really curious what impact it will have on the contest. We all hate attack ads, but they can be brutally effective, and Harper has definitely gotten off easy in that regard over the past few years.

        • contest?

          • Election, contest, game, war, match, battle, challenge etc. It's all the same thing.

      • CR comes out against desperate fearmongering! Only if the Libs do it though.

      • The quote was taken from a reliable source and has been out there on the web, without commentary or criticism or correction from Harper or the Conservatives, for years and years and years, it was from his boss and he has said similar things (though not that particular quote). So to whine that this is egregious is totally ridiculous.

        Anyway, they are pulling that quote so you should be happy now.

        Hopefully replace it with any of the many many other quotations that are from Harper in which he says the Canada Health Act should be gutted.

        • CR did have a point, and I'm glad to hear they are pulling the quote.

          They ought to make a big deal of it though – voiceover:

          "The Liberal Party of Canada would like to apologize for inadvertantly misattributing the quote “It's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” to Mr. Harper. While he has said similar things, this particular quote is from someone else.

          "We do not intentionally mislead with our quotes, and are honest enough to admit our errors."

          – as a series of genuine Harper quotes or a list of CPC lies scrolls across the screen…

          • Good news. You're brilliant.

            Because that is pretty much exactly what the Liberals did.

            'You don't like that conservative quote on healthcare? OK. Which one of the many many anti-Canada Health Act, anti-Canadian healthcare system quotations from Harper should we use then? Here they are. Have your pick."

          • "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care? / Quelle est votre citation préférée de Stephen Harper sur la santé?

            For Immediate Release April 18, 2011

            OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

            Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week's federal leaders' debate. [cont.]"

          • I've left 3 or 4 comments, Keith and they keep disappearing.

            Anyway, short end of it was that you are prescient since that is almost exactly what they did: "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care?

            For Immediate Release
            April 18, 2011

            OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

            Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week's federal leaders' debate."

            They then list a bunch of anti-Canada Health Act, anti-Canadian healthcare quotations from Harper.

          • Looks like there was just a delay; they are all here now.

            Maybe it's time to quit my day job! :-D

  41. Just as soon as the Cons do the same.

  42. Ad is staying up. Quote is being replaced. Win win for Liberals. Health Care, Canadians number one issue.

  43. Why wait? They got double the media exposure they probably would have if this quote was not included, and now they can only lose if they keep running it in rotation.

    And then the high-road becomes theirs again.

  44. I'd be happy if they pulled the quote. Even though whole ad is based on desperate fearmongering, the quote itself is the most egregious part of it because it's been proven to be false.

  45. Harper is the first to blame. Harper has been unwilling to engage in any conversation. During this campaign he has restricted reporters from doing their work by limiting their questions to five. It's been like this since he became PM !

  46. Why? What's untrue about it? Look at what Harper has said over the years about health care and the Canada Health Act.

    The Conservatives have been desperately trying to bury Harper's past, and with the able assistance of the media, especially in the last three elections.

    But this is what is at stake in this election. Harper says we get paradise if he gets a majority. The reality of a Conservative majority is a perfectly fair topic for an ad.

  47. Easy peasy, if that Globe and Mail quote is inaccurate, it can be easily substituted – there are plenty to choose from.
    Seems very hypocritical of Harper though, don't you think? And why would he want to draw even more attention to his attitude towards healthcare funding.

  48. If only it was true. The CPC was taken to task for a few incorrect attack ads, and it had no public opinion repercussions for them. It's usually just a way to get more free advertising from media.

  49. Why? What's untrue about it? Look at what Harper has said over the years about health care and the Canada Health Act.

    The Conservatives have been desperately trying to bury Harper's past, and with the able assistance of the media, especially in the last three elections.

    But this is what is at stake in this election. Harper says we get paradise if he gets a majority. The reality of a Conservative majority is a perfectly fair topic for an ad.

    • It's becoming a bit of a tradition at this point, isn't it? The Liberals are behind by twelve points with two weeks to go, and they're in danger of getting the lowest popular vote in their 144-year history. So they rely on desperate fear-mongering in a last-ditch effort to stave off a CPC majority.

      What's next, I wonder? An abortion ad? A capital punishment ad?

      • I almost spit out my coffee when I saw Kinsella pushing that fear-mongering crap in a column over the weekend.

        Most days, I'm of the opinion that Warren is actively trying to sabotage the LPC campaign, but that stupid column went way too far.

        • I read Kinsella's column as a tacit admission that the Liberals have basically thrown in the towel, and they're pulling out all the stops to try to stop a CPC majority.

          I agree that it sometimes seems like Kinsella is trying to sabotage the LPC campaign, given his acrimonious dispute with the OLO, but not even Kinsella wants a CPC majority (with the inevitable elimination of the per-vote subsidy). So he's relying on the old fear-mongering schtick that worked so well for him in the Chretien war room.

          • It was a blatant admission, not a tacit one, and with a couple of weeks left to go it was really uncalled for.

            Kinsella's a little too full of himself; he led the war room against a divided right. All he had to do was keep them both off balance and he'd easily get a majority. His tactics didn't work for Martin and won't work for Ignatieff because the opponent is different. It's probably best for everyone (except Harper) if he just shuts up for a while. He really seems overly panicky.

          • I totally agree that Kinsella is smug and overrated, given that an inanimate carbon rod could have led the LPC war room against a divided right.

            I think Kinsella is setting himself up to say "I told you so" when the internecine squabbling begins after another humiliating Liberal defeat. He repeatedly warned the Liberals not to trigger an election, given the poll numbers.

          • Your points are well taken. I'm sure many here would think that I'm a Liberal from my posts, but I truly haven't yet figured out who I'm going to vote for. My local MP is almost assured a win, so my vote counts only as a $2 subsidy to a particular party. I definitely have a history of voting for the underdog. I remember literally running to the voting booth in 2006 to case my ballot for Brett Barr.

            However, what I do want is an election night that's really interesting, as opposed to one that's completely predictable. I really do hate it when any of the parties pull up lame, as it destroys the fun of election night. I remember being one of the most visceral critics of Ignatieff the day the confidence vote was held when he couldn't deal with the coalition question, because I didn't want another Dion campaign.

          • Kinsella din't work on Martin's campaign. He's not too fond of that crew.

      • I get it CR – Harper sets the terms of the election. We mustn't talk about anything but the disaster that would occur if he doesn't get a majority.

      • It's becoming a bit of a tradition at this point, isn't it? The Conservatives can't get widespread support from Canadians, and they're in danger of missing a majority yet again. So they rely on desperate fear-mongering in a last-ditch effort to get a CPC majority.

        What's next, I wonder? An ad about a phantom coalition? A ipod tax ad? A claim that only a CPC majority can hold back separatism in Quebec?

        • "A claim that only a CPC majority can hold back separatism in Quebec?"

          Harper trotted that one out on the weekend. Not an ad yet (as far as I know), but he has said it.

          • He's said all three and two them have been in ads already.

            I've been laughing a lot today with all the conservative whining about "fearmongering" and "it's not fair" and "out of context".

      • "An abortion ad? A capital punishment ad? "

        Yup, it's coming.

        Have you not read Warren Kinsella's latest? The light weight is at it again, having found energy renewed. Kinsella is seeing a glimmer of hope. The Liberals may gain a seat or two!! :))
        http://www.edmontonsun.com/comment/columnists/war

    • Harper has never said we get paradise if he gets a majority.

      Harper has said, however, that a majority government will provide stability. ]

      And it will.

      It won't be Canadian stability when Iggy starts handing over the balance of power to the BQ.

      • You are naive and drinking too much kool-aid.

        Look, I voted for and campaigned for Mike Harris in 1995 and 1999. I did so because I thought he was best for the time and circumstances we were in and because of the other leaders.

        But his majority did not bring stability. And Harper's majority will not bring stability. That's just more of the same make it up as they go stuff from the Captain of Deceipt.

        The one and only reason I think a majority wouldn't be that bad is because it would once and for all prove what an incompetent, big spending, hypocrite and anti-democratic promise breaking liar and divider Harper really and fundamentally is to his core. And people like you wouldn't have the excuses of a minority government to pretend is the reason he has acted as he has the last 5 years.

  50. The Transfer is not the Canada Health Act.

  51. I will admit to shaking my head when I saw the ad, as it reminded me of the desperation in the 2006 Martin campaign.

    That said, I'm really curious what impact it will have on the contest. We all hate attack ads, but they can be brutally effective, and Harper has definitely gotten off easy in that regard over the past few years.

  52. But that's not his position. He thinks Provinces should raise their own revenue for health care, to be delivered under the principles of the Canada Health Act, particularly universal access. That should include alternative service delivery.

  53. Can't really do much without a majority. NDP would fight tooth and nail against any changes. This could have been a Tory/Lib cooperative issue, but instead it is just another political sound byte.

  54. The result of Harper giving the tax cuts to the corporations will be him telling the provinces in 2014 `Sorry we are out of money because we spent it on Jets and cannot give you any for health care so make some serious cuts and introduce private alternatives if you want your people to have access to health care. Just to remind you this is a provincial matter so we are not responsible for it`

    Trickle Down Economics Do Not Work.

    Corporations are meant to maximize profits for the shareholders not create jobs. In the corporate world by law all decisions must be made in the best interest of the shareholders not the Canadian Public. Tax cuts are just used to pad the profit margins until cheaper labor can be attained outside of Canada.

    Corporate Tax Cuts = Corporate Bailouts

    Small Corporate Businesses
    $500,000 (Average Income) x 1.5% (Corporate Tax Cut) = $7500/year Savings

    Large Corporations
    $100,000,000 (Average Income) x 1.5% (Corporate Tax Cut) = $1,500,000/year Savings

    Can a small business create jobs with that?

  55. "CBC had tried last week to track down the quote but wasn't able to confirm it. The Conservatives contacted the media on Monday to announce their demand the Liberals remove the ad.

    Neither the Liberal Party or NDP can provide source material for this quote."

    Reported on CBC website http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/s

    Oh, my, Wherry, would you believe CBC reporting??

  56. Exactly. Now every journalist is going to be putting Harper under a Health-care microscope. Since there's no politically-correct answer to those questions, it'll be a real test of his communications director to tip-toe through that minefield.

  57. Sorry, Emily, but Ignatieff really did live outside of Canada for 35 years!!! It's a fact.

  58. So your retort is that 5 years of inaction by the Harper government is really the liberal's fault?

    That's a new one.

  59. these dough brains have not a clue
    40 % of voters are turned off candidates who use american south
    tactics
    come on we are a lot more civilised than that

  60. We can't have ab adult conversation, period – adult or otherwise – when candidates seeking election refuse to participate in public debates!

  61. I suggested you move to Somalia a couple of days ago….do so.

  62. Really?

    They took a quote from the Globe and Mail. The Globe and Mail now admits that THEY (the G&M) misattributed the quote. I don't disagree that the Liberals should have been more careful in their vetting of the ad, but if the nation's largest paper quotes Harper saying X I don't think it's outrageous of a political party to run an ad (in which they cite the G&M as the source) saying that "Harper said X".

    At the very least it's not "lying" unless they KNEW that the Globe story was wrong when they quoted it, and I certainly see no evidence that the Liberals knew ahead of time that the Globe story they were quoting was incorrect.

  63. No matter what: Harper ba.ba.ba.ba.b.ab.ab.a.ba.ba.ab.ba……bad. Sheeep!!

  64. I agree….huge publicity drawing public attention to Harp's musings on healthcare…all of them…and the whole episode demonstrates his hypocrisy on attack ads.

  65. Voters say they're turned off by these tactics. And yet…these tactics work.

    Which is why people keep using them.

  66. Voters say they're turned off by these tactics. And yet…these tactics work.

    Which is why people keep using them.

  67. all these so called managers of campaigns should be fired
    on the spot for coming up with this crap
    i still dont know what these jokers stand for
    and leave our health system alone
    i dont needyour friends rich on the backs of canadians

  68. Excellent solution….they have plenty of Harp health quotes to choose from

  69. Anyone who would listen to your suggestions would be a fool. I am not a fool

  70. Excellent solution….they have plenty of Harp health quotes to choose from

  71. all these so called managers of campaigns should be fired
    on the spot for coming up with this crap
    i still dont know what these jokers stand for
    and leave our health system alone
    i dont needyour friends rich on the backs of canadians

  72. Anyone who would listen to your suggestions would be a fool. I am not a fool

    • Oh, you're a fool.

      • Hi, Patchouli, little warrior. Sitting behind the bush with cook Emily in tow? Have the arrows sharpened, the warpaint applied? Have mirrors there, behind the bushes.

        Little kids playing little kid's games. I love wasting my time on this. It's like reading fiction. Great lines. Great plot. A little simplistic, but an easy read.

    • Actually, you're a Somalian who doesn't want to live with the results of your philosophy.

      • Very deep, cook Emily. Capable of thinking that deep when stirring the pot. Some soup you're cooking, I bet.

        • Tsk tsk…Africa puts you in mind of cooking pots eh?

          Hey, you advertised the dare….I dared you…you welshed.

  73. It's becoming a bit of a tradition at this point, isn't it? The Liberals are behind by twelve points with two weeks to go, and they're in danger of getting the lowest popular vote in their 144-year history. So they rely on desperate fear-mongering in a last-ditch effort to stave off a CPC majority.

    What's next, I wonder? An abortion ad? A capital punishment ad?

  74. Very true…and one of the biggest complaints in this campaign is that Harper won't talk to anyone ….not the public, and not the media….so there won't be any conversation.

  75. Oh, you're a fool.

  76. By all means, lets keep talking about Harper's health care quotes for the next 2 weeks. LOL!

  77. Is anyone going to leak the Christiane Ouimet report from Deloitte?

    I'd love to see what's in there.

  78. which provinces will receive the smaller tax cuts to make sure they can all raise enough?

    What happens when six provinces can't build hospitals?

  79. It has been said that the "Rise up, rise up" style of doing politics is quite American. But then, living in the US for that long does rub off on style, over time……….not?

  80. It has been said that the "Rise up, rise up" style of doing politics is quite American. But then, living in the US for that long does rub off on style, over time……….not?

    • Since when did Conservatives become the anti-Americans in Canada?

      • Plenty of Cons admire and are envious of Americans… and so they are jealous of those who get to try the lifestyle on for a while.
        But perhaps his biggest offense is that he gave up their dream life to come back – which implies there – gasp! – must be something wrong with the land of their dreams. How dare Iggy cast such aspersions! He must be punished!

  81. Is anyone going to leak the Christiane Ouimet report from Deloitte?

    I'd love to see what's in there.

  82. I don't think they should stoop to the same level of deception.

  83. You're describing his position when he was advocating for Alberta. He has put forward a variety of positions before and since as an MP (Reform and Alliance), head of the NCC, a party leader and then as Leader of the Opposition.

    What he HASN'T clarified is what his position is as PM. Now that he's been running the government for 5 years, he really should be in a potion to propose something substantive on the file (he sure had lots of opinions before). Instead, he won't even mention it — and has refused to sit down with the Premiers and discuss what he'd like to see take shape post 2014. Possibly because the only other politician who shares his vision is the leader of the Separatists.

    Regardless of what position he takes on health care, cutting out the Federal role in funding healthcare would require scrapping the Canada Health Act and replacing it with something else. Harper's just too much of a weasel to admit it until he has the wall of a majority to hide behind. Same goes for the long-gun registry, Senate reform and every other issue that requires he build some kind of support for policy among the Provinces. He won't work with or negotiate with anyone — he wants to receive popular acclimation and make changes from his lonely, darkly-lit office — all by himself.

  84. no.

    under NO circumstances.

  85. Actually, you're a Somalian who doesn't want to live with the results of your philosophy.

  86. Absolutely none of those quotes are equivalent to the original quote. Not even close. Scrapping the health act is not even nearly the same as trying alternative methods of delivery.

    The Liberals are in the gutter here, and as usual, rather than own up to their mistake, rather than display even a modicum of integrity, they've dug themselves a deeper gutter. What else might we expect from the party of Adscam. Mr. Wherry, the partisan that he is, who pretends to call for civility in the House and improvements to our democracy, once again reveals that he's just another Liberal party cheerleader, and in reality has no qualms with gutter politics and lying attack ads. He's in the gutter with them.

  87. To be fair, this seems like a cock-up on the part of the journalist.

  88. Geez, can't a guy have his moment?

  89. silly noob, acountability is for Liberals!

  90. Absolutely none of those quotes are equivalent to the original quote. Not even close. Scrapping the health act is not even nearly the same as trying alternative methods of delivery.

    The Liberals are in the gutter here, and as usual, rather than own up to their mistake, rather than display even a modicum of integrity, they've dug themselves a deeper gutter. What else might we expect from the party of Adscam. Mr. Wherry, the partisan that he is, who pretends to call for civility in the House and improvements to our democracy, once again reveals that he's just another Liberal party cheerleader, and in reality has no qualms with gutter politics and lying attack ads. He's in the gutter with them.

    • You do realize that both the Globe and Mail and the Calgary Herald attributed that quote to Harper before the Liberals did, right?

      • Yes, they did. That doesn't excuse the Liberals however, because the Liberals also published the quote, therefore they are also responsible for ensuring the authenticity, which apparently nobody bothered to even try.

        • I guess I'm just not as picky as you. I certainly expect the Liberals to vet their ads, but finding a quote in two separate papers before using it seems fair enough to me. Certainly enough to not warrant calling the Liberals "liars" over it.

          I'm also still waiting for the PM/CPC to go beyond "Harper never said that" to "Harper doesn't think that", but I rather suspect I'll never get the latter, because my belief is that the latter isn't true.

          • Well, by your standards, the Liberals might as well be repeating stuff from the National Enquirer in their ads, if the only standard for truth that you expect is that somebody else said it.

            I would expect a little more from a group of party who wish to run the country.

          • I would expect a little more from a group of party who wish to run the country.

            But you accept so much less from the party that does run the country. Why is that exactly?

          • No I don't. Are you gonna run with the usual assortment of false scandals now? Puhleaze. The false equivalence game is old. So is the "but he/she did it too" defense.

            Yeah, Harper pocketed a wafer. OMG. Oh wait, that was another media lie. But he wouldn't let Suuad Mohamud in the country. Wait, oh yeah, the media lied about that story too. OK, but they put the word "not" on that document. OMG. The word "not" was just so much worse than a national campaign ad with a out-and-out false quote! You are so correct. Not.

            The Liberals don't have the slightest bit of integrity compared to the other parties.

          • You know, those communion wafers are pretty thin… I think you've ground that one right into fine powder by now. As it happens, I did agree that that particular scandelette was ridiculous and (if you check) I believe I said so at the time. But I've let it go… it no longer keeps me awake long into the night cursing and muttering and grinding my teeth. I hope, someday, that you too will find peace.

            That's point one. (If I had the time, I feel that I could write one hell of rant right now, but domestic responsibilities are looming, so I'll have to keep this brief.)

            Point the second. You seem very exorcised at "the media" for overblowing some of the minor Tory missteps that you list (none of the biggies serving your point, I guess) but you flat out refuse to assign any blame to the same media for their part in this gross distortion of the sacred truth. It doesn't matter, to you, that the Liberals quoted Harper in good faith relying on two separate sources. Your lofty standards … for the Liberals, requires even more diligence then that. They must, presumably, have to have it on video tape, plus written out in Harper's own handwriting, witnessed by two or more Supreme Court Justices and sealed in an envelope with Harper's own spit (to be confirmed with DNA testing). Now that's the Conservative standard of INTEGRITY as defined by s_c_f.

            One final point, then I really have to go. You choose Oda's little misadventure as your final example of a faux scandal. And, to a certain extent, that marks a Conservative success story; Oda >just<; managed to avoid a formal finding of contempt of parliament (due to the fact that the gov't fell on another, separate, contempt of parliament). So congrats on that. But the real scandal of the KAIROS affair was the fact that the Harper government smeared an entirely innocent NGO of being ANTI-SEMITES without one scrap of evidence, one questionable comment, one suspect decision or influence. Nothing. Nada. Zero.

            And that is just peachy keen with you, isn't it?

          • but you flat out refuse to assign any blame to the same media for their part in this gross distortion of the sacred truth

            Now there's another flat-out lie.
            http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe
            http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe
            http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe

            According to you, I "flat out refuse" to do something that I've already done three times in three different places. You have the same standards for the truth as the Liberal party and the Globe. Good for you.

            The rest of your comment is equally false, so there's no point in responding to it.

          • The rest of your comment is equally false, so there's no point in responding to it.

            Well played, s_c_f! I think I recognize the Gallant gambit there; beating a hasty retreat in a cloud of righteous moral indignation.

            I do apologize that I haven't read your every word today but, in the context of this thread, I was reacting to your contention that "That [media's initial misquote] doesn't excuse the Liberals however" And you're right, it doesn't excuse the mistake, but it does mitigate the mistake (as is always the case when errors are made "in good faith."

            As I said, I did not read what you had written elsewhere, so I went ahead and checked your 1st link wherein you claim that "the Liberal media" was just acting in consort with the LPC. So yes, you are blaming "the media" for being part of the vast Liberal conspiracy against that poor Mr. Harper who never met a puppie he didn't scratch behind the ear. Thanks for the clarification.

          • Stopping talking now would look as good on you as you are ever going to get.

  91. Hi, Patchouli, little warrior. Sitting behind the bush with cook Emily in tow? Have the arrows sharpened, the warpaint applied? Have mirrors there, behind the bushes.

    Little kids playing little kid's games. I love wasting my time on this. It's like reading fiction. Great lines. Great plot. A little simplistic, but an easy read.

  92. We're waiting for you to move to Nigeria, where most other internet spam artists are located.

  93. I gave you 5 minutes.

    That's an eternity in politics. :D

  94. Very deep, cook Emily. Capable of thinking that deep when stirring the pot. Some soup you're cooking, I bet.

  95. I don't suppose we could get the Prime Minister to say the words "A Conservative government will make no moves to eliminate or significantly weaken the Canada Health Act" or some such, could we?

    'Cause while I see that the Tories are making all sorts of references to the fact that Harper HASN'T scrapped the Canada Health Act, and to the fact that he's been working within the framework of that existing legislation during his time as PM, I haven't actually seen a quote from Harper or the CPC that tells me that Stephen Harper doesn't think that the Canada Health Act should be scrapped.

    Even though one could significantly undermine and weaken the CHA without "scrapping" it, I'd accept a simple "A Tory government will not scrap the Canada Health Act", if the PM would be willing to say that.

  96. CR comes out against desperate fearmongering! Only if the Libs do it though.

  97. These days, I'm not sure if we can have an adult discussion about adult discussions, let alone adult discussions about health care.

  98. I almost spit out my coffee when I saw Kinsella pushing that fear-mongering crap in a column over the weekend.

    Most days, I'm of the opinion that Warren is actively trying to sabotage the LPC campaign, but that stupid column went way too far.

  99. He's never said he won't blow up the moon. Nor has he said he won't start a nuclear war. So, according to your logic, we just might have both.

    But I'm pretty sure he's said, many times, that he has no intention of altering the Canada Health Act.

    Ooh, look here: http://www.profitisnotthecure.ca/learn/canada_hea
    "During the federal election, Stephen Harper promised to enforce the Canada Health Act and protect public health care."

    You do know what google is, don't you? Are you in the gutter with Wherry and the rest of the Liberal party too?

  100. He's never said he won't blow up the moon. Nor has he said he won't start a nuclear war. So, according to your logic, we just might have both.

    But I'm pretty sure he's said, many times, that he has no intention of altering the Canada Health Act.

    Ooh, look here: http://www.profitisnotthecure.ca/learn/canada_hea
    "During the federal election, Stephen Harper promised to enforce the Canada Health Act and protect public health care."

    You do know what google is, don't you? Are you in the gutter with Wherry and the rest of the Liberal party too?

    • I'm sure you've read Mike T.'s reply to your post.

      The G&M and CBC webpages are filled with comments similar to Mike T's.

      Such characters are social bots. They have their computers programmed to spout out the anti-Harper one-liners on the hour. Sometimes when the Liberals are in trouble, they set their one-liners to appear on the minute.

      Empty heads, spouting empty slogans.

      • Actually, no, I've not read a reply from Mike T, he does not appear to have replied to me anywhere. No matter, he's one of those people whom you know what they'll say before they say it.

    • Has anyone accused the Tories of wanting to blow up the moon or start a nuclear war? I'm not asking the Tories to deny wanting to do anything anyone could possibly accuse them of wanting to do, I just want them to deny wanting to do things they're ACTUALLY ACCUSED OF WANTING TO DO. Or don't deny it, if you maybe want to do it. Just don't try to make it LOOK LIKE you're denying it without actually technically denying it.

      Your provided "quote" is exactly the sort of weak sauce I'm talking about. Promising to enforce the Canada Health Act is hardly some great promise vis a vis the Canada Health Act. Promising to enforce the Canada Health Act is simply promising to enforce the law of the land. OF COURSE the Prime Minister is going to enforce the laws of Canada. I mean, I should hope so! That tells me NOTHING however about whether the Prime Minister simply intends to enforce the Canada Health Act right up until the day his government votes to scrap it.

      Promising to abide by a law that is already on the books is not the same as promising not to attempt to repeal said law if given an opportunity. Surely, if in a room of reporters someone asked the Prime Minister "Do you intend to attempt to repeal the Canada Health Act" and the Prime Minister answered, "As Prime Minister, I intend to enforce the Canada Health Act" at least one reporter in the room would realize that the Prime Minister DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.

      (Also, I love that your quickly Googled source for Harper claiming that he intends to enforce the Canada Health Act is 1) not actually a quote of the PM saying he intends to enforce the Canada Health Act, let alone that he won't attempt to repeal it and 2) is from a site which is accusing Harper of breaking his promise to enforce the Canada Health Act, LOL)

      • You can accuse them of anything you like, but if they've never claimed it's something they wish to do, then it's equivalent to any other accusation you can think of, such as blowing up the moon, that's the whole point.

        This last comment of yours makes no sense. Now you're saying that the Liberals are wrong, he's never claimed that he wants to scrap the Health act. Well, that's exactly what I've been saying. And frankly, he's been asked many times if he intends to repeal the act, but you're too damn obtuse to admit it.

        • he's been asked many times if he intends to repeal the act, but you're too damn obtuse to admit it

          I freely admit that he's been asked the question many times, my interest is in his ANSWERS. I could well be missing the pertinent quote on the interwebs. Surely if he's been asked it several times he's answered it definitely at least once! Simply point me to one quote, anywhere, where Harper has said that a Tory government won't repeal the Canada Health Act, and you win!

          Also, again, I don't expect the Tories to deny any accusation flung their way. I only expect them to deny the ones they think Canadians might believe, and that they'd rather Canadians not believe. I for one believe that the Prime Minister WOULD like to scrap the Canada Health Act, and I don't think it's crazy of me to ask for evidence that he won't. Like, for instance, a quote of him saying that he won't.

    • "He's never said he won't blow up the moon."

      Down with Harper's anti-moonism! We're earthlings, let's blow up earth things!

      Seriously though, does this 'blowing up the moon' business of Harper's have anything to do with the launch of SunTV?

  101. Actually, they're in Russia…now don't interrupt when you don't know the story.

  102. Harper's word isn't worth anything, unfortunately. Who cares what he says?

  103. Actually, they're in Russia…now don't interrupt when you don't know the story.

    • Interrupt a spam artist like you? Impossible.

      • I'm sorry, but I'm impervious to Con intimidation and insult tactics.

  104. Tsk tsk…Africa puts you in mind of cooking pots eh?

    Hey, you advertised the dare….I dared you…you welshed.

  105. It was a quote from the Globe and Mail. Don't worry, there are others.

  106. I agree. Let's keep talking healthcare for the next two weeks. Most Canadians think the only solution is more money.

    Soon the Canadians will ask themselves where all this money is coming from.

    And it ain't coming from Quebec!!

  107. It was a quote from the Globe and Mail. Don't worry, there are others.

    • Oh, I'm not worried; I know there are many more misquotes used to discredit Harper.

      As long as reporters are willing to dig, and dig freely enough, the CBC and the G&M will be caught red-handed several times over. Iggy's a fake and some in the media are afraid to admit to it, knowing that they have supported the guy from day one. It is not so easy to bet one's reputation on a fake and to then have to admit the fakeness. Reputations are at stake. Oh, reputations are at stake!

      • Interesting Harper never complained about being mis-quoted in the G&M…

      • The Calgary Herald misattributed the quote to Harper too, and before either the CBC or G&M had, I believe.

      • This is hilarious. What is your understanding of what Harper thinks of our health care system. Where are the "accurate" quotes that support your version of Harper's policy. This is a sincere challange. If you think Harper's position has been misrepresented then please present it accurately.

        I won't hold my breath but I do wonder if you can support your outrage with a factual rebuttal.

  108. I agree. Let's keep talking healthcare for the next two weeks. Most Canadians think the only solution is more money.

    Soon the Canadians will ask themselves where all this money is coming from.

    And it ain't coming from Quebec!!

  109. Interrupt a spam artist like you? Impossible.

  110. contest?

  111. "there are plenty to choose from. "

    No there aren't. None of the quotes they found comes even close.

  112. I'm sorry, but I'm impervious to Con intimidation and insult tactics.

  113. Since when did Conservatives become the anti-Americans in Canada?

  114. Is he scrapping equalization? All provinces see their provincial taxes go up under Harper's proposal, offset by a cut in federal taxes. That's what tax room means.

  115. We are doomed if the desperate Liberals get anywhere near power.

  116. Oh, I'm not worried; I know there are many more misquotes used to discredit Harper.

    As long as reporters are willing to dig, and dig freely enough, the CBC and the G&M will be caught red-handed several times over. Iggy's a fake and some in the media are afraid to admit to it, knowing that they have supported the guy from day one. It is not so easy to bet one's reputation on a fake and to then have to admit the fakeness. Reputations are at stake. Oh, reputations are at stake!

  117. Election, contest, game, war, match, battle, challenge etc. It's all the same thing.

  118. He's committed to 6% growth in the transfer. And not having the First Minister's meetings does not seem to have drastically undermined our health system. If anything, fed-prov relations and the health system both seem to have improved.

  119. I'm sure you've read Mike T.'s reply to your post.

    The G&M and CBC webpages are filled with comments similar to Mike T's.

    Such characters are social bots. They have their computers programmed to spout out the anti-Harper one-liners on the hour. Sometimes when the Liberals are in trouble, they set their one-liners to appear on the minute.

    Empty heads, spouting empty slogans.

  120. I get it CR – Harper sets the terms of the election. We mustn't talk about anything but the disaster that would occur if he doesn't get a majority.

  121. Did you catch the Ottawa Citizen/Postmedia article on the MP's exit interviews?

    That was definitely some food for thought. The useful things MP's accomplish on the hill are not public, and the public things they do are not useful. You'd think all MP's would want to have an adult discussion about how to address that.

  122. Hahaha-Harper! Don't like it when someone misquotes you? Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!!

    Favorite quote from the under-reported French Leaders Debate, by Gilles Duceppe, when asked what he thought of the debate: "I can't say Stephen Harper lied to my face, because he never looked at me."

    Too bad he's a separatist, we could use an honest man with integrity as PM. Looks like Jack's our best choice!

  123. Didn't you announce earlier today that this place is not worthy of your time?

    Did something happen to lower the value of your time?

  124. Hahaha-Harper! Don't like it when someone misquotes you? Well isn't that the pot calling the kettle black!!

    Favorite quote from the under-reported French Leaders Debate, by Gilles Duceppe, when asked what he thought of the debate: "I can't say Stephen Harper lied to my face, because he never looked at me."

    Too bad he's a separatist, we could use an honest man with integrity as PM. Looks like Jack's our best choice!

    • So these little quips makes "one" more honest…that appears to be a low standard….

    • better open your wallet if you want Layton Or are you someone who has nothing and wants to share it with me

  125. It's becoming a bit of a tradition at this point, isn't it? The Conservatives can't get widespread support from Canadians, and they're in danger of missing a majority yet again. So they rely on desperate fear-mongering in a last-ditch effort to get a CPC majority.

    What's next, I wonder? An ad about a phantom coalition? A ipod tax ad? A claim that only a CPC majority can hold back separatism in Quebec?

  126. Wrong answer.

  127. I would have never thought that Stephen Harper presided over the NCC just for the money. But apparently, it is so.

  128. I would have never thought that Stephen Harper presided over the NCC just for the money. But apparently, it is so.

  129. To the "point" of your non-response, though, I haven't seen a single poll that puts the Liberals at lower than the 2008 election. In fact, all of them show the Liberals up. Not only that, but if you break down the national numbers, the Liberals look to gain at least a lot of seats. So I really have no idea where you are getting your information.

  130. Interesting Harper never complained about being mis-quoted in the G&M…

  131. "An abortion ad? A capital punishment ad? "

    Yup, it's coming.

    Have you not read Warren Kinsella's latest? The light weight is at it again, having found energy renewed. Kinsella is seeing a glimmer of hope. The Liberals may gain a seat or two!! :))
    http://www.edmontonsun.com/comment/columnists/war

  132. They can …and just did apparently…substitute Harper's other remarks. They're all pretty much the same.

  133. I read Kinsella's column as a tacit admission that the Liberals have basically thrown in the towel, and they're pulling out all the stops to try to stop a CPC majority.

    I agree that it sometimes seems like Kinsella is trying to sabotage the LPC campaign, given his acrimonious dispute with the OLO, but not even Kinsella wants a CPC majority (with the inevitable elimination of the per-vote subsidy). So he's relying on the old fear-mongering schtick that worked so well for him in the Chretien war room.

  134. Interesting that today the Fraser Institute has come out with the suggestion to suspend the enforcement of the Canada Health Act for 5 years. I wonder if Mr. Harper would care to comment on that idea.

  135. Which provinces get the bigger cuts so they can take on the increased capital costs of hospitals?

  136. Has anyone accused the Tories of wanting to blow up the moon or start a nuclear war? I'm not asking the Tories to deny wanting to do anything anyone could possibly accuse them of wanting to do, I just want them to deny wanting to do things they're ACTUALLY ACCUSED OF WANTING TO DO. Or don't deny it, if you maybe want to do it. Just don't try to make it LOOK LIKE you're denying it without actually technically denying it.

    Your provided "quote" is exactly the sort of weak sauce I'm talking about. Promising to enforce the Canada Health Act is hardly some great promise vis a vis the Canada Health Act. Promising to enforce the Canada Health Act is simply promising to enforce the law of the land. OF COURSE the Prime Minister is going to enforce the laws of Canada. I mean, I should hope so! That tells me NOTHING however about whether the Prime Minister simply intends to enforce the Canada Health Act right up until the day his government votes to scrap it.

    Promising to abide by a law that is already on the books is not the same as promising not to attempt to repeal said law if given an opportunity. Surely, if in a room of reporters someone asked the Prime Minister "Do you intend to attempt to repeal the Canada Health Act" and the Prime Minister answered, "As Prime Minister, I intend to enforce the Canada Health Act" at least one reporter in the room would realize that the Prime Minister DIDN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION.

    (Also, I love that your quickly Googled source for Harper claiming that he intends to enforce the Canada Health Act is 1) not actually a quote of the PM saying he intends to enforce the Canada Health Act, let alone that he won't attempt to repeal it and 2) is from a site which is accusing Harper of breaking his promise to enforce the Canada Health Act, LOL)

  137. Interesting that today the Fraser Institute has come out with the suggestion to suspend the enforcement of the Canada Health Act for 5 years. I wonder if Mr. Harper would care to comment on that idea.

  138. Harper has never said we get paradise if he gets a majority.

    Harper has said, however, that a majority government will provide stability. ]

    And it will.

    It won't be Canadian stability when Iggy starts handing over the balance of power to the BQ.

  139. "What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care]."

    Stephen Harper, then President of the NCC, 2001.

    “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”

    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”
    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    May the One Above save Canada from a Tea Party Neanderthal Majority that'll bring us one step closer to a U.S. of A bankruptcy. DEREGULATION of Markets, firing of Health Inspectors, cutting down social services—but spending $35 Billion on American Contractors being investigated by Washington, and building Mega-PRISONS for tweens.

  140. As an NDP voter hoping hopelessly for a Liberal win, I am 100% willing to let "number and depth of lies told" be the deciding factor in this election.

  141. "What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care]."

    Stephen Harper, then President of the NCC, 2001.

    “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”

    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”
    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    May the One Above save Canada from a Tea Party Neanderthal Majority that'll bring us one step closer to a U.S. of A bankruptcy. DEREGULATION of Markets, firing of Health Inspectors, cutting down social services—but spending $35 Billion on American Contractors being investigated by Washington, and building Mega-PRISONS for tweens.

  142. The Republican Party of Canada (CRAP) will never get a Majority!

    A B C

  143. The Republican Party of Canada (CRAP) will never get a Majority!

    A B C

  144. It was a blatant admission, not a tacit one, and with a couple of weeks left to go it was really uncalled for.

    Kinsella's a little too full of himself; he led the war room against a divided right. All he had to do was keep them both off balance and he'd easily get a majority. His tactics didn't work for Martin and won't work for Ignatieff because the opponent is different. It's probably best for everyone (except Harper) if he just shuts up for a while. He really seems overly panicky.

  145. The Harper quote used in the Lib ad was not out of context: the Libs used a quote which could not be attributed to Harper.

    You not understanding the difference tells me more about yourself than it does about Harper or the Conservative mindset.

    Ah, and we all know Jane Taber's mindset – pretty shallow at best.

  146. This comment was deleted.

    • Can you go any lower? Actually, I think you could, without doubt.

      • I agree; nothing to do with the election – even if it turns out to be true (and so far it all seems to be malicious gossip).

  147. You do realize that both the Globe and Mail and the Calgary Herald attributed that quote to Harper before the Liberals did, right?

  148. But Ms.Oda was lying? CIDA didn't think Oda had been lying? Why the double standard, Lord?

    Why always the double standard??

  149. "He's never said he won't blow up the moon."

    Down with Harper's anti-moonism! We're earthlings, let's blow up earth things!

    Seriously though, does this 'blowing up the moon' business of Harper's have anything to do with the launch of SunTV?

  150. so many damning quotes,
    so hard to choose….

    Rather than backfiring on Liberals the collateral damage is all on Harper, exposing his many dark thoughts about what most voters hold dear.

  151. I haven't seen a single poll that puts the Liberals at lower than the 2008 election. In fact, all of them show the Liberals up.

    Go to http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com and scroll down to the table on the bottom.

  152. I haven't seen a single poll that puts the Liberals at lower than the 2008 election. In fact, all of them show the Liberals up.

    Go to http://threehundredeight.blogspot.com and scroll down to the table on the bottom.

    • There's a lot there, and many tables on the bottom so I'm not sure which one you want me to look at specifically.

      Regardless, they all show the same thing: the Liberals at a minimum are heading for slightly better. The worst poll I've seen has them at 28% which is 2% above where they ended up under Dion.

      • I was referring to the table that lists all the recent polls that go into their projections, along with the weightings.

        For example, the QMI poll that was released this morning shows the Liberals at 26%, below their popular vote in 2008.

        Other polls in that table show the Liberals even lower than 26%. More than half of the polls in that table show the LPC at 28% or below.

  153. so many damning quotes,
    so hard to choose….

    Rather than backfiring on Liberals the collateral damage is all on Harper, exposing his many dark thoughts about what most voters hold dear.

  154. BEST AD FOR LIBS/DEMS;

    PAGES UPON PAGES OF….HARPER'S UnCANADIAN QUOTEs!!!!

    ***** “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”

    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    *****“What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care]."

    Stephen Harper, then President of the NCC, 2001

    WHY DOES HERR HARPER HATE CANADA SO MUCH?

    no wonder we lost the UN Security Council seat. He's an embarrassment!

  155. BEST AD FOR LIBS/DEMS;

    PAGES UPON PAGES OF….HARPER'S UnCANADIAN QUOTEs!!!!

    ***** “Canada appears content to become a second-tier socialistic country, boasting ever more loudly about its economy and social services to mask its second-rate status.”

    Stephen Harper quotes (Canadian Politician, b.1959)

    *****“What we clearly need is experimentation with market reforms and private delivery options [in health care]."

    Stephen Harper, then President of the NCC, 2001

    WHY DOES HERR HARPER HATE CANADA SO MUCH?

    no wonder we lost the UN Security Council seat. He's an embarrassment!

  156. I'm not defending the Liberal quote, and indeed I was one of the first in here to state that the offending quote should be removed. It was quite obvious that it was not appropriate.

    But if you can't see what a misattributed quote has in common with a completely fabricated quote, such as the one I linked to, then there's really no hope.

  157. "He's committed to 6% growth in the transfer. "

    Weeks into the election. Why nothing while IN GOVERNMENT for 5 years?

  158. You are naive and drinking too much kool-aid.

    Look, I voted for and campaigned for Mike Harris in 1995 and 1999. I did so because I thought he was best for the time and circumstances we were in and because of the other leaders.

    But his majority did not bring stability. And Harper's majority will not bring stability. That's just more of the same make it up as they go stuff from the Captain of Deceipt.

    The one and only reason I think a majority wouldn't be that bad is because it would once and for all prove what an incompetent, big spending, hypocrite and anti-democratic promise breaking liar and divider Harper really and fundamentally is to his core. And people like you wouldn't have the excuses of a minority government to pretend is the reason he has acted as he has the last 5 years.

  159. Yes, they did. That doesn't excuse the Liberals however, because the Liberals also published the quote, therefore they are also responsible for ensuring the authenticity, which apparently nobody bothered to even try.

  160. There's a lot there, and many tables on the bottom so I'm not sure which one you want me to look at specifically.

    Regardless, they all show the same thing: the Liberals at a minimum are heading for slightly better. The worst poll I've seen has them at 28% which is 2% above where they ended up under Dion.

  161. I totally agree that Kinsella is smug and overrated, given that an inanimate carbon rod could have led the LPC war room against a divided right.

    I think Kinsella is setting himself up to say "I told you so" when the internecine squabbling begins after another humiliating Liberal defeat. He repeatedly warned the Liberals not to trigger an election, given the poll numbers.

  162. That may be true, but on the other hand, you have an uncanny need to get in the last word in every debate, so you don't appear to be impervious at all.

  163. Your points are well taken. I'm sure many here would think that I'm a Liberal from my posts, but I truly haven't yet figured out who I'm going to vote for. My local MP is almost assured a win, so my vote counts only as a $2 subsidy to a particular party. I definitely have a history of voting for the underdog. I remember literally running to the voting booth in 2006 to case my ballot for Brett Barr.

    However, what I do want is an election night that's really interesting, as opposed to one that's completely predictable. I really do hate it when any of the parties pull up lame, as it destroys the fun of election night. I remember being one of the most visceral critics of Ignatieff the day the confidence vote was held when he couldn't deal with the coalition question, because I didn't want another Dion campaign.

  164. I care.

    I'd like him on record now saying that he's not going to scrap or significantly alter the Canada Health Act so that at least if he ever tries to scrap or significantly alter the Canada Health Act we can all point to a quote of him saying, back in 2011, that he wasn't going to do that.

    As of this moment, based on all of the searching I've done, the Tories could introduce legislation to scrap the Canada Health Act the day after a Throne Speech and the Prime Minister could truthfully say "I said during the campaign that the Liberals were lying when they claimed that I had said that the Canada Health Act should be scrapped, and they were. I never said that. However, I also never said that we wouldn't scrap the Canada Health Act. I've ALWAYS thought that we should scrap the Canada Health Act, I've just never said that out loud before".

    I'm not saying that I'd BELIEVE the PM if he said that he has no intention of scrapping the Canada Health Act, I just want him to say so out loud so that we can throw that quote back in his face if he ever tries it.

  165. Actually, no, I've not read a reply from Mike T, he does not appear to have replied to me anywhere. No matter, he's one of those people whom you know what they'll say before they say it.

  166. I care.

    I'd like him on record now saying that he's not going to scrap or significantly alter the Canada Health Act so that at least if he ever tries to scrap or significantly alter the Canada Health Act we can all point to a quote of him saying, back in 2011, that he wasn't going to do that.

    As of this moment, based on all of the searching I've done, the Tories could introduce legislation to scrap the Canada Health Act the day after a Throne Speech and the Prime Minister could truthfully say "I said during the campaign that the Liberals were lying when they claimed that I had said that the Canada Health Act should be scrapped, and they were. I never said that. However, I also never said that we wouldn't scrap the Canada Health Act. I've ALWAYS thought that we should scrap the Canada Health Act, I've just never said that out loud before".

    I'm not saying that I'd BELIEVE the PM if he said that he has no intention of scrapping the Canada Health Act, I just want him to say so out loud so that we can throw that quote back in his face if he ever tries it.

    • fair enough, but it is sad how far our leaders have fallen, is it not?

    • I agree, more clarity is needed here.

      Part of the clarity I would like to see is to have any one of the parties admit that the current growth in Healthcare spending is unsustainable. I want to hear something about what the solution is to reform the system to find efficiencies, or new models to achieve similar outcomes, or even to say 'We'll spend a lot of money taking care of the boomers, but spending is projected to decrease again after year 20XX, and we'll budget accordingly'.

      Simply saying that the existing Canada Health Act is sacrosanct and we are going to increase funding 6%/yr for the foreseeable future is no more clear or honest than "I haven't touched the Act, yet".

    • You want him to hold up a napkin with "NO 2-TIER HEALTH CARE" scribbled on it? That worked so well some other time, IIRC…

      • I thought you said it was the jetski….

      • All I really want is a better answer than I've received.

        To me, every response I've seen from the Tories on this has the feeling that the Tories are trying to deny the issue at hand (that they may decided to mess with the CHA if reelected) without actually ever promising not to mess with the CHA if re-elected. Every quote I see has the feeling of a politician trying to convince the voters that they won't do X, while steadfastly avoiding saying "I won't do X".

        It has a similar feeling to me of every time Ignatieff denied the Coalition rumours, from January of 2009 (the first time he said he wasn't going to enter a Coalition) until he finally covered all of the bases on that Saturday after the election was called. Just like now, every line from the leader and his party until that Saturday had the feeling of a concerted effort to convince the electorate that the issue at hand was a third rail that they'd never dare touch, but very carefully without ever actually saying "I won't ever touch that".

  167. Don't worry about your health a new Messiah has arrived from his 35 years in the wilderness RISE UP.RISE UP, RISE UP. RISE UP.Just arrived from the Jimmy Swaggart school of acting.If this wasn't the straw that broke the camels back with this over the top acting nothing will.He must have spent too much time at Harvard watching Howard Dean. We all know what that over the top act did for him.the only thing he did not do is appeal for funds to help him carry on his mission of saving us from Tory hell.

  168. This just in – he says he plans to meet with the provinces – see if they can get some of those costs down. Nobody knows how to reduce spending like our Steve.

  169. I was referring to the table that lists all the recent polls that go into their projections, along with the weightings.

    For example, the QMI poll that was released this morning shows the Liberals at 26%, below their popular vote in 2008.

    Other polls in that table show the Liberals even lower than 26%. More than half of the polls in that table show the LPC at 28% or below.

  170. fair enough, but it is sad how far our leaders have fallen, is it not?

  171. You can accuse them of anything you like, but if they've never claimed it's something they wish to do, then it's equivalent to any other accusation you can think of, such as blowing up the moon, that's the whole point.

    This last comment of yours makes no sense. Now you're saying that the Liberals are wrong, he's never claimed that he wants to scrap the Health act. Well, that's exactly what I've been saying. And frankly, he's been asked many times if he intends to repeal the act, but you're too damn obtuse to admit it.

  172. Don't worry about your health a new Messiah has arrived from his 35 years in the wilderness RISE UP.RISE UP, RISE UP. RISE UP.Just arrived from the Jimmy Swaggart school of acting.If this wasn't the straw that broke the camels back with this over the top acting nothing will.He must have spent too much time at Harvard watching Howard Dean. We all know what that over the top act did for him.the only thing he did not do is appeal for funds to help him carry on his mission of saving us from Tory hell.

    • Tory hell. You said it.

      • iggy and mr dithers in the backround jumped the shark this weekend.Looks goog on them…

  173. LOL…it irritates Cons, that's why.

  174. LOL…it irritates Cons, that's why.

    • There it is again.

      I once ran an experiment to see how many times you would reply just to get in the last word. It was unbelievable, you replied about 20 times.

      • LOL get a life.

  175. I guess I'm just not as picky as you. I certainly expect the Liberals to vet their ads, but finding a quote in two separate papers before using it seems fair enough to me. Certainly enough to not warrant calling the Liberals "liars" over it.

    I'm also still waiting for the PM/CPC to go beyond "Harper never said that" to "Harper doesn't think that", but I rather suspect I'll never get the latter, because my belief is that the latter isn't true.

  176. I'm looking at the poll that is at the bottom that is called "Canadian Projection Details". It lists about two dozen poll results. Only 7 of which are in April, during the election. Of those 7, only two put the Liberals lower than 2008, CR. So I'm still not sure what table you are looking at.

    I don't know what polls they are choosing and not choosing to post and calculate by for that website. But clearly they are not looking at all. The ones they look at confirm what I said (though now I can't say I'm not aware of any poll that puts them lower – I missed the Forum Research (who?) poll and the one Angus Reid poll that is an aberration from its own polling results in prior and subsequent days).

    And, other than the two referred to there, every single Ekos and Nanos poll has put them ahead of 2008, around 30%. Abacus today put the Libs at 30% as well.

    CR, you are nothing if not consistent in your efforts to distract from a difficult discussion thread that makes Harper look really bad. So I applaud you for your consistent service.

  177. Because the current arrangement lasts until 2014. What crisis called for it to be re-examined in the last five years?

  178. Federal taxes don't vary by province. And equalization ensures that all provinces have roughly equivalent fiscal capacity.

  179. he's been asked many times if he intends to repeal the act, but you're too damn obtuse to admit it

    I freely admit that he's been asked the question many times, my interest is in his ANSWERS. I could well be missing the pertinent quote on the interwebs. Surely if he's been asked it several times he's answered it definitely at least once! Simply point me to one quote, anywhere, where Harper has said that a Tory government won't repeal the Canada Health Act, and you win!

    Also, again, I don't expect the Tories to deny any accusation flung their way. I only expect them to deny the ones they think Canadians might believe, and that they'd rather Canadians not believe. I for one believe that the Prime Minister WOULD like to scrap the Canada Health Act, and I don't think it's crazy of me to ask for evidence that he won't. Like, for instance, a quote of him saying that he won't.

  180. There it is again.

    I once ran an experiment to see how many times you would reply just to get in the last word. It was unbelievable, you replied about 20 times.

  181. LOL get a life.

  182. Oh, for heaven's sake. Ted, check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_t

    Recent polls that show the Liberals at or below 26%:

    Leger Marketing – April 17, 2011 – 26%
    Angus Reid Public Opinion – April 16, 2011 – 25%
    Forum Research – April 14, 2011 – 25%
    COMPAS – April 11, 2011 – 24%
    Ipsos Reid – April 7, 2011 – 26%
    Forum Research – April 6, 2011 – 25%
    Environics – April 5, 2011 – 25%
    Leger Marketing – April 2, 2011 – 25%
    EKOS Research Associates – March 31, 2011 – 26%
    Harris-Decima – March 27, 2011 – 24%
    Forum Research – March 27, 2011 – 24%

    Yes, Nanos consistently shows the Liberals at closer to 30%, but clearly this demolishes your earlier assertion that "The worst poll I've seen has them at 28% which is 2% above where they ended up under Dion."

    I hope this was educational for you, Ted.

  183. Oh, for heaven's sake. Ted, check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_t

    Recent polls that show the Liberals at or below 26%:

    Leger Marketing – April 17, 2011 – 26%
    Angus Reid Public Opinion – April 16, 2011 – 25%
    Forum Research – April 14, 2011 – 25%
    COMPAS – April 11, 2011 – 24%
    Ipsos Reid – April 7, 2011 – 26%
    Forum Research – April 6, 2011 – 25%
    Environics – April 5, 2011 – 25%
    Leger Marketing – April 2, 2011 – 25%
    EKOS Research Associates – March 31, 2011 – 26%
    Harris-Decima – March 27, 2011 – 24%
    Forum Research – March 27, 2011 – 24%

    Yes, Nanos consistently shows the Liberals at closer to 30%, but clearly this demolishes your earlier assertion that "The worst poll I've seen has them at 28% which is 2% above where they ended up under Dion."

    I hope this was educational for you, Ted.

    • Poor, CR.

      Makes a statement that the Liberals are headed for their worst results in history. Polls show otherwise. Clearly so.

      So what's left to do? Nitpick about how some polls – some from quite a while ago too – almost show that what he said could be true.

      Oh, and Abacus came out today with 30%. And the regionals, even in the Leger and Angus Reid ones you post, show the Liberals increasing their seats.

      But what are facts and analysis of those facts when you have selective online polls!!

      • Here's another one, just released:

        Ekos April 13-17: CPC 37.4, LPC 24.9, NDP 20.0, GPC 8.4, BQ 7.8

        Throughout this campaign, EKOS had a tendency to show higher LPC numbers than most other pollsters. No longer!

  184. Well, by your standards, the Liberals might as well be repeating stuff from the National Enquirer in their ads, if the only standard for truth that you expect is that somebody else said it.

    I would expect a little more from a group of party who wish to run the country.

  185. I agree, more clarity is needed here.

    Part of the clarity I would like to see is to have any one of the parties admit that the current growth in Healthcare spending is unsustainable. I want to hear something about what the solution is to reform the system to find efficiencies, or new models to achieve similar outcomes, or even to say 'We'll spend a lot of money taking care of the boomers, but spending is projected to decrease again after year 20XX, and we'll budget accordingly'.

    Simply saying that the existing Canada Health Act is sacrosanct and we are going to increase funding 6%/yr for the foreseeable future is no more clear or honest than "I haven't touched the Act, yet".

  186. We are only voting him as PM, not King or God or Dictator. Even with majority he can propose change to policy but his detractors will still have a voice and as PM the finger points directly at HIM.
    No matter what decission for change there will always be differences of opinion.
    Why change? What do you think we are voting for. What I want is a reversal of crime. I want the death penalty brought back and used until there are no more repeat criminals. If charged with a crime you don't vote. Without paying taxs or tax fraud you are a criminal. Caught with guns on the street pistol or other your a criminal. Illigal drugs (using or selling), criminal.
    There are other problems but you get where I'm coming from.
    Everybodys got an excuse for drinking and driving , texting while driving. Criminal.
    You say it's a police state. I have no problem with that, it isn't me they are bothering, just you.
    The chances of me getting my wish are nil as too many criminals are out looking for another victim to plunder and they have access to computers to whine about nanny state and their rights.

  187. The accord that Martin brought in and which guaranteed the funding until 2014 called for the provinces and the feds to continue to work together to work on escalating pharmacare costs and increasing homecare availability. Apart from continuing the funding Harper has done nothing.
    We are facing a huge crisis in healthcare which requires leadership, not putting it on the backburner. He has shown no leadership on this.

  188. Kinsella din't work on Martin's campaign. He's not too fond of that crew.

  189. The quote was taken from a reliable source and has been out there on the web, without commentary or criticism or correction from Harper or the Conservatives, for years and years and years, it was from his boss and he has said similar things (though not that particular quote). So to whine that this is egregious is totally ridiculous.

    Anyway, they are pulling that quote so you should be happy now.

    Hopefully replace it with any of the many many other quotations that are from Harper in which he says the Canada Health Act should be gutted.

  190. Poor, CR.

    Makes a statement that the Liberals are headed for their worst results in history. Polls show otherwise. Clearly so.

    So what's left to do? Nitpick about how some polls – some from quite a while ago too – almost show that what he said could be true.

    Oh, and Abacus came out today with 30%. And the regionals, even in the Leger and Angus Reid ones you post, show the Liberals increasing their seats.

    But what are facts and analysis of those facts when you have selective online polls!!

  191. Yeah, I am pleased about that.I wasn't pleased when Ignatieff's initial response was "they have to be honest first." It was the wrong answer and I'm glad to see it was corrected so quickly. Ignatieff is improving in leaps & bounds as far as campaign politics is concerned. It's very encouraging that he has been able to learn from his mistakes. Maybe too little, too late, but still worthy of respect.

  192. Oh I know, but the tactics that he espouses were used by the Martin campaign. Either way, he's never had experience fighting Stephen Harper when Stephen Harper was actually leading a united right.

  193. Yeah, he is. It's a special skill-set you can only learn by doing…we'll have to see if it works, I guess.

  194. The Calgary Herald misattributed the quote to Harper too, and before either the CBC or G&M had, I believe.

  195. This is hilarious. What is your understanding of what Harper thinks of our health care system. Where are the "accurate" quotes that support your version of Harper's policy. This is a sincere challange. If you think Harper's position has been misrepresented then please present it accurately.

    I won't hold my breath but I do wonder if you can support your outrage with a factual rebuttal.

  196. Tory hell. You said it.

  197. At the very least you could give me that this isn't like repeating stuff that's been published in the National Enquirer, it's like repeating stuff that's been published in both the Enquirer AND US Weekly.

    I'm not sure I'd put the Globe and Mail and the Calgary Herald in the same category as those other publications, but at least give me that there's a difference between using a quote as it appeared in one publication and using a quote as it appeared in two publications.

  198. I would expect a little more from a group of party who wish to run the country.

    But you accept so much less from the party that does run the country. Why is that exactly?

  199. "We are only voting him as PM, not King or God or Dictator. "

    Technically, he's running as an MP in Calgary SW.
    Just sayin'.

    "You say it's a police state. I have no problem with that, it isn't me they are bothering, just you."

    You didn't have your hard working, tax-paying neighbours roughed up by out of town cops in their own neighbourhood during the G20, did you? You didn't see your neighbours bashed with clubs and shields and detained without charge for having the audacity to go to lunch kilometres from "the fence" and the "designated protest area" — AFTER the G20 meeting had ended, did you? I also bet you didn't listen to cops from all over the country laughing in the days before the G20 about the free-for-all pass they were being given. Then they packed up, left for their home cities and provinces, and never had to show a lick of evidence to support their actions.

  200. So you couldn't spot the difference? That's good. Social bot-working does work wonders then.

    You see, I, too, have turned on the social-bot machine. No more thinking necessary. Just you guys thinking that a real person does the replying.

    Ain't it fun, communicating to social-bots?

  201. Can I ask again, because I still haven't found it and am less and less motivated to keep looking (though confident that a CPC supporter can find it if it's out there) are there any quotes, anywhere, of Stephen Harper (or a suitably high level Tory, perhaps the Minister of Health) stating that the PM and/or the Conservative Party do not believe that it's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act? I can find indications that Stephen Harper never SAID that (or at least didn't say it in the time and place previously attributed to him saying it) but I have yet to find anything that indicates that the PM doesn't BELIEVE that.

    I can accept that Stephen Harper never said "It's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act". What I'd like to see is any indication that Stephen Harper doesn't believe this to be true, or even better, a clear statement that he and his government do not intend to scrap the Canada Health Act. From what I've found so far, the Tories could introduce legislation later this year to repeal the Canada Health Act and still honestly say that doing so doesn't technically go against anything they said during the election campaign.

    This is like the Coalition thing all over again. How long did Ignatieff spend trying to convince everyone that he had ruled out a coalition, all the while without ever technically ruling out a coalition (until, finally, he had no choice but to be completely clear and emphatic). I wonder, similarly, how long the Tories will work on convincing Canadians that they're not going to mess with the CHA, without ever actually stating that they're not going to mess with the CHA?

  202. Can I ask again, because I still haven't found it and am less and less motivated to keep looking (though confident that a CPC supporter can find it if it's out there) are there any quotes, anywhere, of Stephen Harper (or a suitably high level Tory, perhaps the Minister of Health) stating that the PM and/or the Conservative Party do not believe that it's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act? I can find indications that Stephen Harper never SAID that (or at least didn't say it in the time and place previously attributed to him saying it) but I have yet to find anything that indicates that the PM doesn't BELIEVE that.

    I can accept that Stephen Harper never said "It%E2%80%99s past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act". What I'd like to see is any indication that Stephen Harper doesn't believe this to be true, or even better, a clear statement that he and his government do not intend to scrap the Canada Health Act. From what I've found so far, the Tories could introduce legislation later this year to repeal the Canada Health Act and still honestly say that doing so doesn't technically go against anything they said during the election campaign.

    This is like the Coalition thing all over again. How long did Ignatieff spend trying to convince everyone that he had ruled out a coalition, all the while without ever technically ruling out a coalition (until, finally, he had no choice but to be completely clear and emphatic). I wonder, similarly, how long the Tories will work on convincing Canadians that they're not going to mess with the CHA, without ever actually stating that they're not going to mess with the CHA?

  203. Can I ask again, because I still haven't found it and am less and less motivated to keep looking (though confident that a CPC supporter can find it if it's out there) are there any quotes, anywhere, of Stephen Harper (or a suitably high level Tory, perhaps the Minister of Health) stating that the PM and/or the Conservative Party do not believe that it's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act? I can find indications that Stephen Harper never SAID that (or at least didn't say it in the time and place previously attributed to him saying it) but I have yet to find anything that indicates that the PM doesn't BELIEVE that.

    I can accept that Stephen Harper never said "It's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act". What I'd like to see is any indication that Stephen Harper doesn't believe this to be true, or even better, a clear statement that he and his government do not intend to scrap the Canada Health Act. From what I've found so far, the Tories could introduce legislation later this year to repeal the Canada Health Act and still honestly say that doing so doesn't technically go against anything they said during the election campaign.

    This is like the Coalition thing all over again. How long did Ignatieff spend trying to convince everyone that he had ruled out a coalition, all the while without ever technically ruling out a coalition (until, finally, he had no choice but to be completely clear and emphatic). I wonder, similarly, how long the Tories will work on convincing Canadians that they're not going to mess with the CHA, without ever actually stating that they're not going to mess with the CHA?

    • Well frankly, even if Harper did say he supported public health care, I would just assume he was lying. As far as I am concerned, he cannot be trusted on anything.

  204. Can you go any lower? Actually, I think you could, without doubt.

  205. No I don't. Are you gonna run with the usual assortment of false scandals now? Puhleaze. The false equivalence game is old. So is the "but he/she did it too" defense.

    Yeah, Harper pocketed a wafer. OMG. Oh wait, that was another media lie. But he wouldn't let Suuad Mohamud in the country. Wait, oh yeah, the media lied about that story too. OK, but they put the word "not" on that document. OMG. The word "not" was just so much worse than a national campaign ad with a out-and-out false quote! You are so correct. Not.

    The Liberals don't have the slightest bit of integrity compared to the other parties.

  206. My understanding is that the Canada Health Act deters (rather than prohibits) provinces from allowing payment from sources other than goverment for medically necessary services. If a province does not comply with the CHA, the federal government can reduce the amount of money it transfers to the province for healthcare.
    Ontario and most (if not all) provinces have their own legislation designating medically necessary services as publically insured and making it illegal for people to pay for insured services. If the CHA were scrapped, each province would have to decide if they would want to change their legislation to allow for a patient payer system.

    It is also important to note that there is nothing in the CHA or provincial legislation that broadly prohibits private, for profit healthcare. Indeed physicians' practices (e.g. your family doctor's office) are private, for-profit corporations. In Ontario, the Independent Health Facilities Act and the Private Hospitals Act allow for a limited range of private facilities to offer publicy funded hospital-type services.

  207. My understanding is that the Canada Health Act deters (rather than prohibits) provinces from allowing payment from sources other than goverment for medically necessary services. If a province does not comply with the CHA, the federal government can reduce the amount of money it transfers to the province for healthcare.
    Ontario and most (if not all) provinces have their own legislation designating medically necessary services as publically insured and making it illegal for people to pay for insured services. If the CHA were scrapped, each province would have to decide if they would want to change their legislation to allow for a patient payer system.

    It is also important to note that there is nothing in the CHA or provincial legislation that broadly prohibits private, for profit healthcare. Indeed physicians' practices (e.g. your family doctor's office) are private, for-profit corporations. In Ontario, the Independent Health Facilities Act and the Private Hospitals Act allow for a limited range of private facilities to offer publicy funded hospital-type services.

  208. You must be joking. So now if the lie is repeated often enough, it's OK. The BS defense has reappeared.

    I've already responded to that particular angle, which in my opinion is the worst possible defense you can imagine. http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe

  209. You really are grasping at straws if you use that defense. Most objective people would claim that it's actually worse when a lie is repeated numerous times and none of the perpetrators do the necessary fact-checking. But to you, repeating a lie more often actually makes it more true. How quaint. You are so full of BS.

  210. You must be joking. So now if the lie is repeated often enough, it's OK. The BS defense has reappeared.

    I've already responded to that particular angle, which in my opinion is the worst possible defense you can imagine. http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe

  211. You really are grasping at straws if you use that defense. Most objective people would claim that it's actually worse when a lie is repeated numerous times and none of the perpetrators do the necessary fact-checking. But to you, repeating a lie more often actually makes it more true. How quaint. You are so full of BS.

    • I just think "lie" is a bit too harsh a term for misattributing a quote is all.

      • Of course it's a lie. If you say Harper said X, and Harper did not say X, then you're lying. It's especially bad when the CPC points it out and you still say it's true because he must have said it on some other occasion (which is also a lie).

        It's especially wrong if you put quotes around it. In that case, it's even worse. You're not only claiming he said it, you are claiming to reproduce the actual words, to give it even more credibility. If you are quoting someone, and the quote is false, then you are lying. Simple as that.

  212. No more thinking necessary. Just you guys thinking that a real person does the replying.

    I'm glad you've found your niche. Congratulations on your … success(?)

  213. Well frankly, even if Harper did say he supported public health care, I would just assume he was lying. As far as I am concerned, he cannot be trusted on anything.

  214. CR did have a point, and I'm glad to hear they are pulling the quote.

    They ought to make a big deal of it though – voiceover:

    "The Liberal Party of Canada would like to apologize for inadvertantly misattributing the quote “It's past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” to Mr. Harper. While he has said similar things, this particular quote is from someone else.

    "We do not intentionally mislead with our quotes, and are honest enough to admit our errors."

    – as a series of genuine Harper quotes or a list of CPC lies scrolls across the screen…

  215. CR did have a point, and I'm glad to hear they are pulling the quote.

    They ought to make a big deal of it though – voiceover:

    "The Liberal Party of Canada would like to apologize for inadvertantly misattributing the quote “It%E2%80%99s past time the feds scrapped the Canada Health Act.” to Mr. Harper. While he has said similar things, this particular quote is from someone else.

    "We do not intentionally mislead with our quotes, and are honest enough to admit our errors."

    – as a series of genuine Harper quotes or a list of CPC lies scrolls across the screen…

  216. Harper is incapable of working with other people.

  217. I just think "lie" is a bit too harsh a term for misattributing a quote is all.

  218. "A claim that only a CPC majority can hold back separatism in Quebec?"

    Harper trotted that one out on the weekend. Not an ad yet (as far as I know), but he has said it.

  219. Good news. You're brilliant.

    Because that is pretty much exactly what the Liberals did.

    'You don't like that conservative quote on healthcare? OK. Which one of the many many anti-Canada Health Act, anti-Canadian healthcare system quotations from Harper should we use then? Here they are. Have your pick."

  220. "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care? / Quelle est votre citation préférée de Stephen Harper sur la santé?

    For Immediate Release April 18, 2011

    OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

    Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week's federal leaders' debate. [cont.]"

  221. "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care? / Quelle est votre citation préférée de Stephen Harper sur la santé?

    For Immediate Release April 18, 2011

    OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

    Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week%E2%80%99s federal leaders%E2%80%99 debate. [cont.]"

  222. [cont.] "The choice are:

    “[G]overnments across this country have experimented with alternative service delivery…We're not going to wave the finger at provinces because they experiment with different delivery.” (Stephen Harper, English Language Leaders' Debate, April 12, 2011)

    "We also support the exploration of alternative ways to deliver health care. Moving toward alternatives, including those provided by the private sector, is a natural development of our health care system." (Stephen Harper, Toronto Star, October 2002)

    “[E]ach province should raise its own revenue for health care — i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points.” (Stephen Harper, ‘Firewall' letter, January 24, 2001) "

  223. So these little quips makes "one" more honest…that appears to be a low standard….

  224. [cont.] "The choice are:

    “[G]overnments across this country have experimented with alternative service delivery…We're not going to wave the finger at provinces because they experiment with different delivery.” (Stephen Harper, English Language Leaders' Debate, April 12, 2011)

    "We also support the exploration of alternative ways to deliver health care. Moving toward alternatives, including those provided by the private sector, is a natural development of our health care system." (Stephen Harper, Toronto Star, October 2002)

    “[E]ach province should raise its own revenue for health care — i.e., replace Canada Health and Social Transfer cash with tax points.” (Stephen Harper, ‘Firewall%E2%80%99 letter, January 24, 2001) "

  225. Agreed, Kinsella would love to say that and he will have a chance!!

  226. You know, those communion wafers are pretty thin… I think you've ground that one right into fine powder by now. As it happens, I did agree that that particular scandelette was ridiculous and (if you check) I believe I said so at the time. But I've let it go… it no longer keeps me awake long into the night cursing and muttering and grinding my teeth. I hope, someday, that you too will find peace.

    That's point one. (If I had the time, I feel that I could write one hell of rant right now, but domestic responsibilities are looming, so I'll have to keep this brief.)

    Point the second. You seem very exorcised at "the media" for overblowing some of the minor Tory missteps that you list (none of the biggies serving your point, I guess) but you flat out refuse to assign any blame to the same media for their part in this gross distortion of the sacred truth. It doesn't matter, to you, that the Liberals quoted Harper in good faith relying on two separate sources. Your lofty standards … for the Liberals, requires even more diligence then that. They must, presumably, have to have it on video tape, plus written out in Harper's own handwriting, witnessed by two or more Supreme Court Justices and sealed in an envelope with Harper's own spit (to be confirmed with DNA testing). Now that's the Conservative standard of INTEGRITY as defined by s_c_f.

    One final point, then I really have to go. You choose Oda's little misadventure as your final example of a faux scandal. And, to a certain extent, that marks a Conservative success story; Oda >just<; managed to avoid a formal finding of contempt of parliament (due to the fact that the gov't fell on another, separate, contempt of parliament). So congrats on that. But the real scandal of the KAIROS affair was the fact that the Harper government smeared an entirely innocent NGO of being ANTI-SEMITES without one scrap of evidence, one questionable comment, one suspect decision or influence. Nothing. Nada. Zero.

    And that is just peachy keen with you, isn't it?

  227. I've left 3 or 4 comments, Keith and they keep disappearing.

    Anyway, short end of it was that you are prescient since that is almost exactly what they did: "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care?

    For Immediate Release
    April 18, 2011

    OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

    Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week's federal leaders' debate."

    They then list a bunch of anti-Canada Health Act, anti-Canadian healthcare quotations from Harper.

  228. I've left 3 or 4 comments, Keith and they keep disappearing.

    Anyway, short end of it was that you are prescient since that is almost exactly what they did: "Which is your favourite Harper quote on health care?

    For Immediate Release
    April 18, 2011

    OTTAWA – The Liberal Party of Canada is inviting all Canadians to take part in an online poll to select their favourite Harper quote on health care at lpc.ca/bestquote. The winning quote will be included in an updated version of the “Health Risk” ad.

    Stephen Harper has a lifetime of comments that show his opposition to universal public health care in Canada, including as recently as last week%E2%80%99s federal leaders%E2%80%99 debate."

    They then list a bunch of anti-Canada Health Act, anti-Canadian healthcare quotations from Harper.

  229. He's said all three and two them have been in ads already.

    I've been laughing a lot today with all the conservative whining about "fearmongering" and "it's not fair" and "out of context".

  230. but you flat out refuse to assign any blame to the same media for their part in this gross distortion of the sacred truth

    Now there's another flat-out lie.
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe
    http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/04/18/party-and-powe

    According to you, I "flat out refuse" to do something that I've already done three times in three different places. You have the same standards for the truth as the Liberal party and the Globe. Good for you.

    The rest of your comment is equally false, so there's no point in responding to it.

  231. Plenty of Cons admire and are envious of Americans… and so they are jealous of those who get to try the lifestyle on for a while.
    But perhaps his biggest offense is that he gave up their dream life to come back – which implies there – gasp! – must be something wrong with the land of their dreams. How dare Iggy cast such aspersions! He must be punished!

  232. You have absolutely no faith that Canada, its institutions, its people, its way of life will not survive 4 to 5 years with the Liberals holding a majority? You have that little faith in Canada?

    Shocking.

  233. "So now if the lie is repeated often enough, it's OK."

    Seems to be the CPC's prime strategy. While I'd like to think the Libs have a higher standard, it seems rather hypocritical of a Con to pass judgment on another for following their own SOP.

  234. Of course it's a lie. If you say Harper said X, and Harper did not say X, then you're lying. It's especially bad when the CPC points it out and you still say it's true because he must have said it on some other occasion (which is also a lie).

    It's especially wrong if you put quotes around it. In that case, it's even worse. You're not only claiming he said it, you are claiming to reproduce the actual words, to give it even more credibility. If you are quoting someone, and the quote is false, then you are lying. Simple as that.

  235. By your standard, someone would have to go back to the reporter, demand their notes and recordings, then do a voice analysis to verify it really is Harper's voice on the tape.

    Get real; if a quote is out there in a news source, and the person quoted has not challenged its veracity, it's fair use.

  236. Health Care is a bag of worms for all leaders and all canadians, and it appears its the provinces who control(?). Canada currently has a 2 tier health care program…no one can counter that fact unless you also believe our health care is free.
    There is a litany of debates on how to fix the cost and there appears to be no solutions except throw more dollars at it as new technologies and the undying Boomers increase the cost. We have to evaluate and look at new ideas – Harper did mention alternatives – maybe its a regional/district health policy where the "locals" pay for operational cost of their health facilities using say an additive to their Property Taxes…this way no leader or government has to wear the health cost anvil…

  237. Health Care is a bag of worms for all leaders and all canadians, and it appears its the provinces who control(?). Canada currently has a 2 tier health care program…no one can counter that fact unless you also believe our health care is free.
    There is a litany of debates on how to fix the cost and there appears to be no solutions except throw more dollars at it as new technologies and the undying Boomers increase the cost. We have to evaluate and look at new ideas – Harper did mention alternatives – maybe its a regional/district health policy where the "locals" pay for operational cost of their health facilities using say an additive to their Property Taxes…this way no leader or government has to wear the health cost anvil…

  238. Why is it the federal government's role to provide leadership on this? Are the provinces running into a problem that requires federal intervention? If so, what is it and why haven't they pressed for that intervention?

  239. Looks like there was just a delay; they are all here now.

    Maybe it's time to quit my day job! :-D

  240. The rest of your comment is equally false, so there's no point in responding to it.

    Well played, s_c_f! I think I recognize the Gallant gambit there; beating a hasty retreat in a cloud of righteous moral indignation.

    I do apologize that I haven't read your every word today but, in the context of this thread, I was reacting to your contention that "That [media's initial misquote] doesn't excuse the Liberals however" And you're right, it doesn't excuse the mistake, but it does mitigate the mistake (as is always the case when errors are made "in good faith."

    As I said, I did not read what you had written elsewhere, so I went ahead and checked your 1st link wherein you claim that "the Liberal media" was just acting in consort with the LPC. So yes, you are blaming "the media" for being part of the vast Liberal conspiracy against that poor Mr. Harper who never met a puppie he didn't scratch behind the ear. Thanks for the clarification.

  241. Doesn't matter, in politics. "Harper wants to kill off doctors and nurses" will now stick, no matter what ad gets run in the next weeks.

  242. The message that Harper has it in for the surgeon who should be taking out your rotten appendix will stick. It is smarmy and dishonest, but it is still a win for the Liberals.

    PS: I gave you 4 hours, just to show you how reasonable I can be…

  243. You want him to hold up a napkin with "NO 2-TIER HEALTH CARE" scribbled on it? That worked so well some other time, IIRC…

  244. I agree; nothing to do with the election – even if it turns out to be true (and so far it all seems to be malicious gossip).

  245. What's all this nonsense about health care? Why, just within the last decade, it was FIXED FOR A GENERATION! You could ask some fellow who occasionally shows up mugging for the cameras beside one Michael Ignatieff; he was the generation-fixer.

    Don't people remember their history?

    And once that gets settled, you could ask Mr. Ignatieff about the corporate tax rate question, then ask the generation-fixer about the country in which his big boats are registered.

  246. What's all this nonsense about health care? Why, just within the last decade, it was FIXED FOR A GENERATION! You could ask some fellow who occasionally shows up mugging for the cameras beside one Michael Ignatieff; he was the generation-fixer.

    Don't people remember their history?

    And once that gets settled, you could ask Mr. Ignatieff about the corporate tax rate question, then ask the generation-fixer about the country in which his big boats are registered.

  247. This whole episode is pretty despicable of the Liberals. It says way more about how desperate they are, than it says about Stephen Harper.

    The last time the Liberals needed to balance a budget, they axed healthcare funding. Are they going to do that again? Stephen Harper has, and has promised to continue to fund healthcare for Canadians. Michael Ignatieff can't say the same.

  248. This whole episode is pretty despicable of the Liberals. It says way more about how desperate they are, than it says about Stephen Harper.

    The last time the Liberals needed to balance a budget, they axed healthcare funding. Are they going to do that again? Stephen Harper has, and has promised to continue to fund healthcare for Canadians. Michael Ignatieff can't say the same.

  249. Seems like an enormous amount of trouble to go to ensure the same amount still gets to everyone who needs it.

    C'mon which provinces are the losers?

  250. Seems like an enormous amount of trouble to go to ensure the same amount still gets to everyone who needs it.

    C'mon which provinces are the losers?

    • I don't think you understand how either equalization or the health transfer works.

  251. Stopping talking now would look as good on you as you are ever going to get.

  252. I thought you said it was the jetski….

  253. Talk about sour grapes. Stephen Harper just found out that Iggy did not come back for him. Lol

  254. Talk about sour grapes. Stephen Harper just found out that Iggy did not come back for him. Lol

  255. I don't think you understand how either equalization or the health transfer works.

  256. Here's another one, just released:

    Ekos April 13-17: CPC 37.4, LPC 24.9, NDP 20.0, GPC 8.4, BQ 7.8

    Throughout this campaign, EKOS had a tendency to show higher LPC numbers than most other pollsters. No longer!

  257. All I really want is a better answer than I've received.

    To me, every response I've seen from the Tories on this has the feeling that the Tories are trying to deny the issue at hand (that they may decided to mess with the CHA if reelected) without actually ever promising not to mess with the CHA if re-elected. Every quote I see has the feeling of a politician trying to convince the voters that they won't do X, while steadfastly avoiding saying "I won't do X".

    It has a similar feeling to me of every time Ignatieff denied the Coalition rumours, from January of 2009 (the first time he said he wasn't going to enter a Coalition) until he finally covered all of the bases on that Saturday after the election was called. Just like now, every line from the leader and his party until that Saturday had the feeling of a concerted effort to convince the electorate that the issue at hand was a third rail that they'd never dare touch, but very carefully without ever actually saying "I won't ever touch that".

  258. Sorry the Liberal party doesn't throw people under the bus.

  259. The Liberals have knowing misled the Canadian public. Where is the outrage. Where is the apology. How much of what the Liberals are saying can be beleived. Will the cancel the free trade agreement, the GST, do national day care. No they lied about those too. Paul Martin slashed healthcare spending. Will the Liberals do it again?

  260. The Liberals have knowing misled the Canadian public. Where is the outrage. Where is the apology. How much of what the Liberals are saying can be beleived. Will the cancel the free trade agreement, the GST, do national day care. No they lied about those too. Paul Martin slashed healthcare spending. Will the Liberals do it again?

  261. My appendix is rotten? Sh*t!

  262. Absolutely not. A lie is a lie is a lie, regardless of when it's challenged. What an absurd remark. You have absolutely no integrity.

  263. Absolutely not. A lie is a lie is a lie, regardless of when it's challenged. What an absurd remark. You have absolutely no integrity.

  264. iggy and mr dithers in the backround jumped the shark this weekend.Looks goog on them…

  265. Hey, I have spent most of my life living with a Liberal gov`t in power and I am aware that for the most part they were a competent gov`t, however they have done some things over the past 10 years that tell me they would be a poor substitute for power right now.

    Because of their scattered allegiances, lack of direction, and poor leadership, I fear our way of life would suffer under a weakened Liberal gov`t.

    Check back with me in 4 years.

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